steelhead spawning?

steelhead spawning?

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steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 10:17:42 AM

apolloguy

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someone asked me if steelhead can reproduce naturally in the tribs or not .
i thought they were infertile,but wasnt 100% sure. and whether they died after spawning.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 10:24:39 AM

KJH807

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VERY limited... less than 1%
no
no

< Message edited by KJH807 -- 11/12/2009 10:25:05 AM >

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 10:47:41 AM

steelheadfillet

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Yes they do reproduce. In fact 3CU started with fish they netted from a small walnut trib.
Seems someone once stated there is very little repro.
I can assure you no one ever did a study to actually find out.

I can assure you, if they stopped stocking steelhead this year, we would still have fish.
Not as many of course, but still some.

NO ONE knows for sure what the percentage is. Most that respond are only quoteing
info that someone else typed on the internet.

I know for a fact its much higher than 1%

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 10:54:39 AM

pxatim

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If no one ever did a study then how can you state "for a fact" that it is greater than 1%

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 10:55:34 AM

norm289

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Steelheadfillet

I agree with you that the percentage is definately higher than 1%. There has been some studies done. One by the PAFBC in 1994(released the findings) and another study by a man named Brad Thompson, who completed his study in 1999.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 10:55:53 AM

dano

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steelheadfillet
I know for a fact its much higher than 1%

It changes year to year.
Even though we might get decent reproduction in a good year, most of those baby fish won't make it to adulthood.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 10:59:03 AM

steelheadfillet

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norm, I never knew someone actually did a study. I hope to read the results someday.

I have caught many 2-4 in wild steelhead in a few different creeks. sometimes there were hundreds of them in mid-summer. the cooler the summer, the more survive.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 10:59:19 AM

pafisher

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Do they spawn....yes.
Does the spawning result in fish return...very,very little if any.
The fry grow into smolts which takes at least a year in perfect conditions then they migrate to the lake/ocean to mature and return to spawn.The Erie tribs are not able to keep the fry alive long enough to grow into smolts because of little cool water in the summer months not to mention lack of food.If the stocking would be discontinued there would be next to nothing as far as Steelhead.It's artificial but it's still Steelhead Fantasyland!

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:02:24 AM

KJH807

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steelheadfillet

NO ONE knows for sure what the percentage is. Most that respond are only quoteing
info that someone else typed on the internet.

I know for a fact its much higher than 1%

are you fecking high?
those are contradictory statements

some numbers
say 1.5 million smolts stocked... 1% would be 15,000 wild fish
thats more than some returns in the PNW and BC streams

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:04:02 AM

steelheadfillet

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the brown trout in walnut had no problem with water temps this whole summer.
that is a warm creek compared to smaller spring fed creeks in erie.

I assure you, more than one creek stays plenty cold to support trout year roung.

I bet most of you dont know of eries native brook trout.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:06:17 AM

steelheadfillet

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kjh807, everything your typing is just info you read of the internet.
Please, learn alittle about erie before re-quoting others non sense.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:07:40 AM

razmatazz05

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steelheadfillet

I know for a fact its much higher than 1%

Did you do the research?

< Message edited by razmatazz05 -- 11/12/2009 11:08:57 AM >

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:08:49 AM

KJH807

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i was quoting your "non-sense"

i know that things have been rough ever since you failed your GED... but i was doing some basic simple math

< Message edited by KJH807 -- 11/12/2009 11:09:17 AM >

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:22:51 AM

steelheadfillet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

i was quoting your "non-sense"

i know that things have been rough ever since you failed your GED... but i was doing some basic simple math

when in doubt, challenge someones IQ.
so typical after losing an argument. KJH807, you have no idea of my education.
I bet I've had at least 4 years longer than you.

I had a secretary do my typing for 25 years, so forgive me if I make a few mistakes.

Back to the subject.

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Post #: 14

RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:28:59 AM

KJH807

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there is no doubt
I quoted a contradictory statement you made
you then said

quote:

ORIGINAL: steelheadfillet

Please, learn alittle about erie before re-quoting others non sense.

i also did the math to show how your guess at "much higher than 1%" was highly improbable...

i took these 2 things into consideration when i made an educated guess that you are a unintelligent internet nuisance

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:34:17 AM

Screamin Steel

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I belive the 1% assumption was based on the fact that the majority of our streams are not suitable. However, there are sections of some of our tribs that are suitable...swift enough, right sized gravel, stream bottom, that some can take place successfully. I for one, would be curious to see a reproduction study conducted, though it would be relatively pointless in that natural reproduction is definitely insignificant enough that it would never be able to carry the steelhead fishery in any large numbers. I imagine it would be similar or maybe somewhat better than the limited salmon reproduction we have been getting since the end of the salmon stocking program in PA.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:36:42 AM

bluehalo

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Not to join in the fray, but when did the amount of steelhead go from 1 million per year to 1.5 million per year? Is that including other states?
And thats a very good point screamin'. The little bit we do have will be concentrated in the few areas that allow spawning, not spread throughout all streams. The 1% is stated for the entire watershed, and may make the number look incorrect.

< Message edited by bluehalo -- 11/12/2009 11:42:51 AM >

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:41:18 AM

KJH807

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i was using that for the sake of the argument...

the state is around 1 million and then there are private stockings

to be conservative... say 1million... 1% would be 10,000 wild fish...

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:42:46 AM

Loomis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: steelheadfillet

quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

i was quoting your "non-sense"

i know that things have been rough ever since you failed your GED... but i was doing some basic simple math

when in doubt, challenge someones IQ.
so typical after losing an argument. KJH807, you have no idea of my education.
I bet I've had at least 4 years longer than you.

I had a secretary do my typing for 25 years, so forgive me if I make a few mistakes.

Back to the subject.

Over yourself yet? Okay, Good, lets continue...

If steelhead could naturally reproduce at a rate that was good enough, we wouldn't stock them.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 11:58:09 AM

steelheadfillet

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If they didnt stock, the highly publicized steelhead destination(ERIE AKA STEELHEAD ALLEY) could'nt exist.
For a state to have a successful fishery, it must stock enough that even a novice angler has a chance of success.

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Post #: 20

RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:04:27 PM

steelheadfillet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

there is no doubt
I quoted a contradictory statement you made
you then said

quote:

ORIGINAL: steelheadfillet

Please, learn alittle about erie before re-quoting others non sense.

i also did the math to show how your guess at "much higher than 1%" was highly improbable...

i took these 2 things into consideration when i made an educated guess that you are a unintelligent internet nuisance

your reading but not comprehending.

what is contradictory?

the 1% comment? you did not do a study.
you did not swim every inch of stream doing DNA tests on all par/smolts you came across.

you did state something you have no proof or facts to back you up.

again, stating second hand opinions and defending them might make you look like a " unintelligent internet nuisance".

thats my opinion.

< Message edited by steelheadfillet -- 11/12/2009 12:05:14 PM >

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:09:08 PM

pxatim

Posts: 4433
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From: Cap City
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You sure your secretary isn't typing for you now..

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:09:30 PM

6point7

Posts: 443
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From: Erie Pa.
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

VERY limited... less than 1%
no
no

That about summed it up I thought...NEXT PLEASE!

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:10:10 PM

Hummer82

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This topic has been hammered over and over. However, I looked this up many years ago. At that time I found out that steelhead cannot reproduce here because the fish have to come from saltwater to fresh water in order for fertilization to be possible. Now, I am sort of doubting that info by some of the "veteran" responsed to this thread. Can anybody clear this up.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:10:20 PM

scaremypsu

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here is the abstract to one of the studies

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B984D-4VJ59FM-G&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1090270516&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e28a086c3ac48b38ae58bd5821e44c81

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:13:00 PM

KJH807

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Joined: 11/26/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: steelheadfillet

If they didnt stock, the highly publicized steelhead destination(ERIE AKA STEELHEAD ALLEY) could'nt exist.
For a state to have a successful fishery, it must stock enough that even a novice angler has a chance of success.

but you just said...

quote:

ORIGINAL: steelheadfillet

I know for a fact its much higher than 1%

conservatively...
2% wild would put returns at 20,000
5% wild would put returns at 50,000

sounds like a successful fishery... actually a very sucessful fishery

considering there has never been a year of 40,000 fish (wild or hacthery) crossing the priest rapids dam on the columbia...
which is the first dam after the snake splits on an upstream path

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:16:56 PM

KJH807

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hummer82

At that time I found out that steelhead cannot reproduce here because the fish have to come from saltwater to fresh water in order for fertilization to be possible.

thats why i call them steelbows...
here is a thread hashing that one out... http://forums.fishusa.com/tell_me_about_steelhead/m_41627/tm.htm

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:23:50 PM

RhnstnCowboy

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quote:

conservatively...
2% wild would put returns at 20,000
5% wild would put returns at 50,000

sounds like a successful fishery... actually a very sucessful fishery

considering there has never been a year of 40,000 fish (wild or hacthery) crossing the priest rapids dam on the columbia...
which is the first dam after the snake splits on an upstream path

Not to mention the thousands and thousands of Yinzers that step on and constantly disturb every inch of the stream bed on every stream in the watershed, during every spawning season. I'm shocked that any natural reproduction goes on...

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:35:26 PM

Cold

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Another question:

If the state would shut down steelhead fishing after stocking this spring's smolts, just boom, no more fishing in Erie tribs at all for anything...would the steelhead population stabilize and maintain itself, even at a low number? I suspect it'd be like the chinooks and cohos that are sometimes caught/sighted while steelhead fishing. Yes there are definitely a few, and yes, they are sustaining their population, but no, they're not present in any significant numbers. Just a guess though, I await the input of hotter heads.

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RE: steelhead spawning? - 11/12/2009 12:50:16 PM

scubatrout

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Ok, here is how it goes: In the wild, 10,000 WILD fish go up the river and spawn, creating 1 million smolts that go out and mature, of them 10,000 return to spawn. That's a 1% return of WILD FISH. Stocking 1 million smolts, with 10,000 fish returning is a 1% return of HACHERY FISH. Not wild fish. A 1 to 2 percent return is what fishery management is hoping to get to sustain a wild fishery.

I'm not disputing the fact that steelhead spawn in Erie tribs. Take a walk anytime in Strechen Flats, you will see hundreds of 1 to 2 inch steelhead par. These are wild fish. No one stocks them that small. These par could be from hachery fish or wild fish or both that spawned in the river.

If the return of hachery fish is 1% (not saying it is) say 10,000 then the number of wild fish has to be a tiny fraction of that. Wild fish are spawned in the stream only, but can have hachery parents.

Taking fish from a stream and artificially spawning them and raising the offspring in a hachery does not create wild fish.

The Fish commision doesn't want to acknoledge that any reproduction takes place, because then they would have to justify killing wild fish or regulate it. That would cut into liscense sales if the limit was lowered which would cut into revenue to produce hachery fish and pay salaries.

Does the fish commision fin clip all the smolts they release?

I'd be happy to do a study to determine the percent of wild fish returning. Can someone hook me up with a grant. $250,ooo should do it.

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