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obama in berlin.... - 7/24/2008 11:51:12 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2240
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		saw some of his speech.  now i am getting interested.  seems as though the middle east has taken to him and he is rolling in europe.  i have some questions about him, as does everyone, but he speaks of peace, not war.  maybe this guy has something. 

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."
Post #: 1
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 7:23:57 AM   
jon_e_si

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline 		He's smart - obviously intelligent and well educated - but I'm more interested in who is behind him pushing him so fast and the source of the reported $4.2 million income he and his wife had last year!! ????

He gives good speeches with aid of teleprompter. (Not sure I did this right, but if not "google" - "obama-teleprompter" !!


"http://www.youtube.com/v/omHUsRTYFAU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param

"http://www.youtube.com/v/omHUsRTYFAU&hl=en&fs=1"

(in reply to rapala11)
Post #: 2
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 7:33:06 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2240
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		as for financial backing, they are all backed my, in part, questionable monies.  it is quite obvious that the current administration is backed by oil, insurance and pharmaceuticals.  nixon and johnson by the military industrial complex and so on.

my question to myself is: can obama be the great unifier and peacmaker?  his talk is good.

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to jon_e_si)
Post #: 3
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 7:39:34 AM   
Inukshuk


Posts: 1303
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		I dont think there was a teleprompter in Berlin, and if so who cares.  Just because you found some footage of him fumbling over some words only means he his human. 

I think a large portion of his income has been through the sale` of his books. 

No matter what this guy does, someone will be there to find some miniscule tid bit to diminutize his person.  I dont hear any criticism on the numerous, idiot mistakes John McCain makes, and there is always an excuse from the right as to why he makes these mistakes. 

(in reply to jon_e_si)
Post #: 4
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:00:37 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2240
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		imagine a president who can unify, bring peace and lead.  nice thought, yes?

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to Inukshuk)
Post #: 5
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:01:21 AM   
tommybanzai

 

Posts: 255
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline 		ummmm....almost all presidents and incumbents use teleprompters

(in reply to Inukshuk)
Post #: 6
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:03:18 AM   
Inukshuk


Posts: 1303
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rapala11

imagine a president who can unify, bring peace and lead.  nice thought, yes?


right now we can only imagine!

(in reply to rapala11)
Post #: 7
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:12:37 AM   
jon_e_si

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline 		What I'm saying is "look before you leap"! If you click on that link there are numerous articles, videos, etc. - apparently some are starting to question and hopefully by November, it will all wash out. Definately not "miniscule" if you check out that link!

I guess Bush's "fumbles" (many) make him human too!

(in reply to Inukshuk)
Post #: 8
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:15:22 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2240
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		many questions about both, about all.  what we really need, more than anything is hope.

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to jon_e_si)
Post #: 9
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:16:09 AM   
S-10

 

Posts: 1388
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		Kennedy was well liked, and a very good speaker who the world thought highly of because he said all the right things. He gave us the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missle crisis as a result, and Viet Nam. The only thing we really know about Obama is he is a left wing Liberal, He is one of the best speakers we have seen in a long time, he has changed his claimed position on many issues, and he is a confirmed anti gun politician who was on the Board of directors of the anti gun Joyce Foundation. He hasn't been in politics long enough to be able to make a lot of tough decisions on world affairs without relying on the entrenched politicians and their beliefs. It's a heck of a gamble.

(in reply to Inukshuk)
Post #: 10
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:27:15 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2240
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		he is a confirmed anti gun politician

this is what bothers me the most.  true, he lacks experience, but maybe this is a good thing?  hasn't had a chance to be corrupted by the powers that be.  as far as a gamble, they are all one.  we gambled on bush and got burned.  same with nixon.  loved jimmy carter, but he couldn't pull it together.  yea, they are all a gamble.  just refreshing to hear some hope for a change.  europeans sure love the guy, for sure.

talk on the street that he may chose a military man for vp.  would appease many. 

as for flip-flops...we all can find each prez has done it.   "read my lips......." or  " i did not have relations...." or "they have wmds....".  seems to be a prerequisite for elected postitions.  but then again, we all change our minds as we become more educated on issues.  shoot, i didn't like the fact that bush refused to acknowledge global warming or it's causes, but now does and states that something has to be done.  i think maybe they don't flip-flop, but change their minds.   

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to S-10)
Post #: 11
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:31:57 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2240
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		sincere, i don't know, but this message does convey hope.............................................................                       Obama: New walls need tearing down


Story Highlights
NEW: U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama to travel to France, UK on Friday
Obama: Berlin's history offers hope for the future
Obama: Remove walls between religions, races, and the rich and poor
Trip is intended to shore up Obama's foreign policy credentials
Next Article in Politics »

U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama was due to arrive in Paris on Friday, one day after speaking to hundreds of thousands of exuberant people in Berlin.






Barack Obama presses the flesh in Germany after his speech in Berlin's Tiergarten Park.

Obama was expected to meet French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Friday, and then head to London later in the day.
On Thursday, the presumptive Democratic nominee for the White House used a speech in Berlin -- the German city that once symbolized Cold War division --- to warn about the dangers of allowing new walls to come between the United States and its allies.
Obama highlighted what he sees as common transatlantic goals while also accepting the differences of the Bush years.
He is on the latest leg of an international trip intended to bolster his foreign policy credentials at home and set out his vision for a new era of transatlantic cooperation.
In an echo of former President Ronald Reagan's speech when he demanded the Berlin Wall be pulled down, Obama said: "The walls between the countries with the most and those with the least cannot stand. The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down."
Obama introduced himself to the Berlin crowd as a proud U.S. citizen and a "fellow citizen of the world."
He said: "This city, of all cities, knows the dream of freedom. And you know that the only reason we stand here tonight is because men and women from both of our nations came together to work, and struggle, and sacrifice for that better life." Watch Obama in Germany »
He touched on issues that have generally divided Europe and the U.S. such as climate change as well as comparing Berlin's Cold War struggle with today's international challenges like fighting terrorism.
"People of the world - look at Berlin, where a wall came down, a continent came together, and history proved that there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one," he said.
Obama said: "While the 20th century taught us that we share a common destiny, the 21st has revealed a world more intertwined than at any time in human history."
He said the fall of the Berlin Wall offered hope as the world faces up to international challenges such as terrorism, climate change and loose nukes
"In this new world, such dangerous currents have swept along faster than our efforts to contain them. That is why we cannot afford to be divided," Obama said.
He also addressed differences between the U.S. and Europe but added: "In Europe, the view that America is part of what has gone wrong in our world, rather than a force to help make it right, has become all too common.
"In America, there are voices that deride and deny the importance of Europe's role in our security and our future. Both views miss the truth...

Don't Miss

Obamafest but Europe has questions
TIME.com: Berlin Awaits the 'Next JFK'
iReport.com: Have you seen Obama? Send your videos, photos
Full script of Obama's speech
    "In this new century, Americans and Europeans alike will be required to do more - not less. Partnership and cooperation among nations is not a choice; it is the one way, the only way, to protect our common security and advance our common humanity."
    Turning to global warming, Obama said: "This is the moment when we must come together to save this planet.
    "Let us resolve that we will not leave our children a world where the oceans rise and famine spreads and terrible storms devastate our lands. Let us resolve that all nations - including my own - will act with the same seriousness of purpose as has your nation, and reduce the carbon we send into our atmosphere

    < Message edited by rapala11 -- 7/25/2008 8:35:05 AM >

    _____________________________

    01/20/09

    silence means consent

    ..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

    (in reply to rapala11)
    Post #: 12
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:36:59 AM   
    Inukshuk


    Posts: 1303
    Joined: 2/11/2007
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: jon_e_si

    What I'm saying is "look before you leap"! If you click on that link there are numerous articles, videos, etc. - apparently some are starting to question and hopefully by November, it will all wash out. Definately not "miniscule" if you check out that link!

    I guess Bush's "fumbles" (many) make him human too!


    jon
    I am very cautious when it comes to politics, have said that, I think its obvious who I support, but with reason, so I am not "leaping" into anything.

    I watched many interviews with Obama, and he has the same poise and abiltiy to articulate a profound thought as when he is standing in front of a teleprompter.  I searched on You Tube and out of all the videos I watched, only the one you posted shows him struggling and fumbling with his speech. 

    Anyway, I think the issues are a lot deeper than this, so we should probably move on.

    As far as bush's blunders, there is a large difference between stumbling over words and pure stupidity.

    (in reply to jon_e_si)
    Post #: 13
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:44:35 AM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2240
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		"As far as bush's blunders, there is a large difference between stumbling over words and pure stupidity. "

    best example of this is iraq.  over 100,000 innocent civilians, over 4400 military have died...and for what.  to depose a dictator?  i can put up with high gas prices, high food prices, high taxes, whatever.  cannot put up with the unnecessary deaths of so many or the degradation of the rock we live on.  is obama the man who can bring change.....i have no idea, but we need a change of direction.  we need hope and we need to feel good about ourselves and our country again.  "it's been a long time coming (scn)". 

    _____________________________

    01/20/09

    silence means consent

    ..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

    (in reply to Inukshuk)
    Post #: 14
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:53:07 AM   
    S-10

     

    Posts: 1388
    Joined: 1/21/2005
    Status: offline     		I have seen movies and news clips from the 30's and 40's of one man who was a better speaker and had a more exuberant following in Germany than Obama. He is trying to be everything to everybody and it just doesn't happen in life. Hopefully we will find out who the real Obama is before November and not just a (paint your hopes and dreams here) as is happening now.

    (in reply to Inukshuk)
    Post #: 15
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:58:55 AM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2240
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		I have seen movies and news clips from the 30's and 40's of one man who was a better speaker and had a more exuberant following in Germany

    you know, i voted for bush the first time.  he told me what i wanted and needed to hear.  i believed him about faith, about bringing strength to this country with a better image, and a whole lot of issues.  i believed.  as did the german people.  again, who can know.  we are common men with but a few choices.  we have been lied to (as were the germans) so many times that it is hard to discern the truth.  again, what obama may have going for him is the fact that he hasn't been around long enough to be polluted....maybe.  these are tough choices that we have to make in november.  my heart tells me that we need serious change.  

    _____________________________

    01/20/09

    silence means consent

    ..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

    (in reply to S-10)
    Post #: 16
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:17:00 AM   
    eyesandgillz


    Posts: 634
    Joined: 6/18/2003
    Status: offline     		Yeah, change, but give me details.  Change, change, change....to what?   Never any details and as always, the devil is in the details.  No thanks.  I'll go with my gut and vote conservative as I almost always do.  Even though McCain has been around a long time, he doesn't "seem" to be as polluted or corrupted as many others on the hill.  Not as conservative as I like and I disagree with him on some issues, but, I pretty much disagree with Obama across the board on issues.  McCain, even though a republican, has a mind of his own and seems to follow his own way, not just the party line.  He is an honorable man. 

    And my gosh, if people thought Hillary was bad when Billy Bob was in the oval office, just wait until Michelle Obama gets her arse in there...She leaves a bitter taste in my mouth just looking at her, much less hearing her speak, talking down to people...again, a shining example of the liberal elite that think they have all the answers but none of those answers (no matter how painful), ever apply to them, only their "subjects." 

    And about Bush Jr., a lot of people had hope when he came into office, myself included, and then 911 happened.  The world as we knew it changed from that moment on.  As far as the WMD's, last time I remember, almost the entire Congress and most Eurpean nations were in agreement that there were WMDs in Iraq. 

    PS - stock market (tech bubble) was already in the crapper before Bush ever took office.  That happened on Billy Bob's watch but I don't blame him, either.  It is cyclical.  Always was, always will be.  The real devil in that mess and the mess we are in now is the Federal Reserve and Alan Greenspan.  His tenure was spread across many administrations, both dems and repubs.  If you want to blame anyone for the mess the economy is in right now, Greenspan should be the one to receive your wrath.

    (in reply to rapala11)
    Post #: 17
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:58:11 AM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2240
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		no details here...as i said, not sure who to trust anymore.

    as for change, you think that no change is needed, that everything is okay?

    i can't vote one way or another (cons-lib) most of the time.  i feel each issue deserves consideration and i will be darned if i become a puppet for any party or idealogy.  my vote is too important.

    after 9/11 the patriotic fervor in this country was unbelieveable.  we stood unified.  we went into afghanistan to get that homicidal maniac who attacked us.  and then we switched to iraq.....why?  they were not even connected to 9/11.  even your prez said so. 

    so now we are there, both sides voted, both sides were wrong.  morality knows no party lines, morality dictates that we do what is right.  help fix that country, apologize, and leave over a period of time as their government wishes.  they do not want us there.  pray for our leaders (both parties, again) who voted for war.  they are going to have to answer for many innocent deaths.

    mccain is an honorable man, a great warrior and a patriot.  i believe that he really cares about this country.  as for michelle obama, i have to plead ignorance.  i know nothing about the woman, her convictions, or her aspirations.  i think the only first lady that i liked in my lifetime was rosalyn carter.

    _____________________________

    01/20/09

    silence means consent

    ..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

    (in reply to eyesandgillz)
    Post #: 18
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 10:01:51 AM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2240
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		eyes, one thing, if i may.  we are all motivated by different issues and that is usually how we vote.  my issues involve peace (because of my faith) and enviro issues.  i consider myself a patriotic american because i choose to try to make change, to make this a better country even at the risk of being ridiculed because of how i feel.

    chances are that i will not change your mind as you feel strongly about certain issues, but neither will mine be changed.  just wish that somewhere along the timeline of my life that we can see a leader with moral integrity. 

    _____________________________

    01/20/09

    silence means consent

    ..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

    (in reply to rapala11)
    Post #: 19
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 12:20:58 PM   
    Inukshuk


    Posts: 1303
    Joined: 2/11/2007
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: S-10

    I have seen movies and news clips from the 30's and 40's of one man who was a better speaker and had a more exuberant following in Germany than Obama. He is trying to be everything to everybody and it just doesn't happen in life. Hopefully we will find out who the real Obama is before November and not just a (paint your hopes and dreams here) as is happening now.


    I completely understand that!  Just because one is a brilliant speaker and knows how to move a crowd does not mean he can rule a country or the world, thats why I always try to be cautious.  But, at this point I dont think Obama will be any thing close to Hitler, and I think he is much more than just "painting hopes and dreams". 

    (in reply to S-10)
    Post #: 20
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 12:30:21 PM   
    Inukshuk


    Posts: 1303
    Joined: 2/11/2007
    Status: offline     		"Yeah, change, but give me details.  Change, change, change....to what?   Never any details and as always, the devil is in the details.  No thanks.  I'll go with my gut and vote conservative as I almost always do.  Even though McCain has been around a long time, he doesn't "seem" to be as polluted or corrupted as many others on the hill.  Not as conservative as I like and I disagree with him on some issues, but, I pretty much disagree with Obama across the board on issues.  McCain, even though a republican, has a mind of his own and seems to follow his own way, not just the party line.  He is an honorable man. "

    Eyes-
    If you disagree with Obama thats fine, but understand that he has been very detailed on a lot of his issues, at least as detailed as McCain. 
    You say McCain has a mind of his own, but he has voted, to a very large percentage, with George Bush. 

    In my opinion, the more I hear McCain speak, the more I dislike him, as a politician and a person.  I used to have a high opinion of him because of his military service, but this respect is diminishing daily.

    (in reply to eyesandgillz)
    Post #: 21
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 5:20:00 PM   
    ROCKHARD


    Posts: 790
    Joined: 10/13/2007
    Status: offline     		i listened to,a true marxist agenda there,wanting a global partnership,(world govt),against our constitution,no foreign govt shall infringe on our rights,,,blamed us on problems of world,anti american topic,we shouldnt care who abroad likes the way we do things,,, ice caps are melting cause of cars cin boston and china industry,well only north pole has slight shrinkage ,also new report showing underwater volcanic activity is probable cause,plus not first time it melted,at one time mwhole world was under ice,i guess our cars caused that to melt, he mentioned taking from the wealthy of the world to the have nots,that  is BULL,i am not into giving nothing to nobody that dont earn it,,why should i work and give to someone in kenya or somalia, get rid of their dictaters and do for themselves,,tired of hearing this marxist even open his socialistic mouth,,, he is wrong for america,he is great for europe,cause they embrace what he talks about,maybe he should run over there for office, he is not for america,if you vote him in,then you deserve at every cost what you get,didnt even go visit vthe wounded soldiers in germany,cause no media was allowed in,no big coverage for him,,,and yes he is reading and listening thru a teleprompter,

    _____________________________

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    Post #: 22
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 5:26:20 PM   
    ROCKHARD


    Posts: 790
    Joined: 10/13/2007
    Status: offline     		he also said 2 superpowers almost destroyed the world,but didnt say that the one superpower stop it,the us,, ronald reagan,,he didnt go over there pussyfootung to no one,they hated his speech,i loved it, he come right out and said to russia,you build nukes,we will kmnock em out of the sky, tear that wall down,,well we see who backed down, WE WILL NOT JEPORDIZE OUR FREEDOMS TO NO ONE, he was the greatest commander in chief this country ever seen, he believed in american freedoms,not willing to give them away just to make a jesture to some marxist nation,, we have pussy pres canidates anymore, none worth the air they breath

    _____________________________

    WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

    (in reply to ROCKHARD)
    Post #: 23
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 7:17:55 PM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2240
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		 he was the greatest commander in chief this country ever seen

    and to prove it, we invaded grenada and beat them.  just having fun, rock...reagan was a knucklehead too...he gave birth to nafta.  clinton just raised that beast.

    btw, when he made that "tear down this wall" speech, the soviet union was already crumbling.

    _____________________________

    01/20/09

    silence means consent

    ..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

    (in reply to ROCKHARD)
    Post #: 24
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:25:55 PM   
    spoonchucker


    Posts: 5662
    Status: offline     		"get,didnt even go visit vthe wounded soldiers in germany,cause no media was allowed in,no big coverage for him"

    Flat out FALSE. The PENTAGON cancelled that visit.

    _____________________________

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    (in reply to rapala11)
    Post #: 25
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:29:41 PM   
    spoonchucker


    Posts: 5662
    Status: offline     		"he didnt go over there pussyfootung to no one,they hated his speech,i loved it, he come right out and said to russia,you build nukes,we will kmnock em out of the sky"

    Please, PLEASE point out the speech, where he said, or even inferred that. By the way THEY ( the Germans ) loved, and applauded his ( Reagan's ) speech. I though you knew all about him.

    _____________________________

    Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

    Step Up, or Step Aside

    The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

    GL&TC

    (in reply to spoonchucker)
    Post #: 26
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:38:33 PM   
    ROCKHARD


    Posts: 790
    Joined: 10/13/2007
    Status: offline     		no spoon,most of europe didnt like reagans visit,, and yes he did stand firm and say tear down the wall,while in europe,not many germans liked his speech,,riot police were on stand bye


    < Message edited by ROCKHARD -- 7/25/2008 8:39:47 PM >

    _____________________________

    WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

    (in reply to spoonchucker)
    Post #: 27
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:48:56 PM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2240
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		sounds as though the crowd liked him:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjWDrTXMgF8&feature=related

    _____________________________

    01/20/09

    silence means consent

    ..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

    (in reply to ROCKHARD)
    Post #: 28
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:49:27 PM   
    spoonchucker


    Posts: 5662
    Status: offline     		I was wrong, Obama did cancel, due to pentagon rules

    "When Obama cancelled his military base visit, he was responding to a Pentagon ruling:
    "We learned from the Pentagon last night that the visit would be viewed instead as a campaign event," the adviser, retired Air Force Maj. Gen. Scott Gration, said in a statement.


    "Senator Obama did not want to have a trip to see our wounded warriors perceived as a campaign event when his visit was to show his appreciation for our troops and decided instead not to go."


    Reuters has more from the Pentagon:
    The Pentagon in a statement cited longstanding Defense Department policy that prohibits military personnel or facilities from association with partisan political campaigns and elections. "


    "We told him he could visit Landstuhl (Regional Medical Center in western Germany) with his Senate staff, but not with his campaign staff," said Army Lt. Col. Elizabeth Hibner."
     
     
    Given that he is travaling with campaign staff, not senatorial staff, AND his trip is being paid for BY his campaign. It would not have been possible to meet those conditions.



    _____________________________

    Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

    Step Up, or Step Aside

    The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

    GL&TC

    (in reply to ROCKHARD)
    Post #: 29
    RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:52:28 PM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2240
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		as far as nukes and reagan went:

    Another highlight of the speech was Reagan's call to end the arms race with his reference to the Soviets' SS-20 nuclear weapons, and possibility of "not merely of limiting the growth of arms, but of eliminating, for the first time, an entire class of nuclear weapons from the face of the Earth


    he did not want to wipe out russia, but wanted to limit their numbers....diarmament.

    _____________________________

    01/20/09

    silence means consent

    ..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

    (in reply to spoonchucker)
    Post #: 30
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