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RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:53:41 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5903
Status: online 		This is what I challenged.

"he didnt go over there pussyfootung to no one,they hated his speech,i loved it, he come right out and said to russia,you build nukes,we will kmnock em out of the sky"

And THIS is what you responded to

"and yes he did stand firm and say tear down the wall,while in europe"

I didn't challenge THAT. You say you read these posts, I say you need glasses.

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Post #: 31
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:56:38 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 32
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:58:52 PM   
ROCKHARD


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Beginning 10 years ago, the Soviets challenged the Western alliance with a grave new threat, hundreds of new and more deadly SS-20 nuclear missiles, capable of striking every capital in Europe. The Western alliance responded by committing itself to a counter-deployment unless the Soviets agreed to negotiate a better solution; namely, the elimination of such weapons on both sides. For many months, the Soviets refused to bargain in earnestness. As the alliance, in turn, prepared to go forward with its counter-deployment, there were difficult days--days of protests like those during my 1982 visit to this city--and the Soviets later walked away from the table.
But through it all, the alliance held firm. And I invite those who protested then-- I invite those who protest today--to mark this fact: Because we remained strong, the Soviets came back to the table. And because we remained strong, today we have within reach the possibility, not merely of limiting the growth of arms, but of eliminating, for the first time, an entire class of nuclear weapons from the face of the earth.


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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 33
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:59:37 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2709
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		what about nukes?

btw, it took another 18 months to tear down this wall.  other european leaders got involved during this period of detente to convince gorbachev to open the berlin borders.  reagan did play a huge part in this, but did not act alone.

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..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 34
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 8:59:49 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		these where from his berlin speech,spoon



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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 35
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:02:58 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		rap,what i was refering to was not like obama trying to apease every foreign nation ,,reagan stood firm and didnt bow to no one,,,that is leadership,, not saying yes sir we are the problem in this world,we will change our ways

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 36
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:05:49 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2709
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		rock, it was reagan who through some diplomacy talked the soviets into a disarmament.  the arms racing was plodding along, they build one, we build one.  it wasn't because of a threat to erase them that things changed, but through diplomacy.  not a shot fired and peace came about. 

_____________________________

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 37
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:09:19 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		didnt say otherwise,, stating his stance not to back down,,if you read his berlin speech,he was more ascertive than the playing to the media type hype obama did, sounded to me obama was campaigning to berliners

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 38
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:11:29 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5903
Status: online 		And, where was this phrase in that speech?
 
"he come right out and said to russia,you build nukes,we will kmnock em out of the sky"


Beginning 10 years ago, the Soviets challenged the Western alliance with a grave new threat, hundreds of new and more deadly SS-20 nuclear missiles, capable of striking every capital in Europe. The Western alliance responded by committing itself to a counter-deployment unless the Soviets agreed to negotiate a better solution; namely, the elimination of such weapons on both sides.
 
Note, the highlighted sentence 10 YEARS ago. The process began BEFORE Reagan came into office. AS Rapala pointed out, Reagan played a role, but was not THE determining factor. The USSR was well on it's way out, when Reagan arrived. He just sped (spent) the process up so it happened under his watch. He ALSO had the good fotune of having Gorbachev as his counterpart.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 39
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:12:45 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2709
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		obama is not trying to appease.  can't you see that he parallels reagan.  he is seeking sit-downs with fueding governments, he is seeking peace through organized campaigns and alliances.  threats are weak in the face of diplomacy.  reagan knew this and obama is learning this.  better to talk than to kill.  i have heard obama talk about fighting terrorism, destroying their leaders and so on.  i don't think he has any intentions of negotiating with terrorists or rogue governments.  i believe he will give iran a chance to get in line just as bush did with north korea.   

_____________________________

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 40
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:14:01 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5903
Status: online 		"not saying yes sir we are the problem in this world,we will change our ways"

He never said anything of the kind.  



_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

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Post #: 41
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:14:37 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		well figures, your response spoon,, i guess you dont believe that clinton rolled on with the help of reaganomics either,,

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 42
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:17:35 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5903
Status: online 		Clinton completely walked AWAY from reaganomics ( so did Bush I a little ). That's why he BALANCED budgets, instead of creating huge deficits.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 43
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:18:43 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2709
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		rock, the economy was sliding at the end of the reagan era.  you remember, don't you?  seems as though a lot of us steel workers took one on the chin.  subsidized steel imports from china, korea and japan were killing us.  in turn, the rest of the economy went into a slide  (called stagflation maybe).  the economy (i learned this in economics class) is cyclical, just like grouse and crappie populations.  clinton did jump start it again and balanced the budget at the same time.  actually, it wasn't him, as much as his advisors and greenie.  

_____________________________

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 44
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:19:31 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5903
Status: online 		"well figures, your response spoon,, "

Not MY response, Reagan's own words, in his own speech, that you posted.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

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Post #: 45
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:23:10 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		as far as the wording,paraphrasing,i guess, but in his speech is what he meant,spoon,,counter deployment unless russia came to the table,ok 

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 46
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:25:09 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline 		Dont pay rock any mind. He is listening to hannity and combs radio. One of the programs they were saying the same thing rock is saying. Its silly. If you believe this crap rock then you really need to expand your mind.

(in reply to rapala11)
Post #: 47
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:29:03 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		yea rap,economy slipping,as always does,, but we seem to forget that it happens every so many yrs,,look at these posts,you would think it never got bad before,,, always amazed me tho,the pres has actually the least hand in economy if you think about it,,he can suggest,but the houses control the outcome,,,, i dont know, i would rather have a leader who doesnt care what the rest of world thinks of us,compared to someone who is so willing to give away what little freedoms we have left as a nation,, theres more people trying to get in here than trying to leave,so its not as bad as we keep hearing

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 48
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:36:53 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		jonny dont watch hannity and combs,,,,,hannity has the radio show, if that was said today or this week,well at work or on road while that show on,, and combs is the liberal view of the tv show,hannity the conserv view... plus jonny tv media ,if you notice went from clinton networks to all obama networks,, about 2 minutes aday on mccain and nothing on third party canidates,, so who do you go by

_____________________________

WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 49
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:39:18 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		by the way jonny i helped campaign for many dems in the last 30 yrs,no liberals tho,not my cup of tea,,but never did for a repub,, so i do look at both versions,and liberalism isnt it

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 50
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:41:50 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5903
Status: online 		 "if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization."
 
Counter deployment, and "knock-em out of the sky", are two entirely different things. Note the phrase: "if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe". This is what he was trying to get across, you build more, we build more. The expense of continuing the arms race, stifled economic prosperity for them. Actually, it did for us as well, we were just better positioned to hold on longer than they were.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 51
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:54:24 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		spoon obama does in all his speeches,blame U.S.,,, WE USE MORE ENERGY, HOW DO WE EXPECT THE WORLD TO FEEL ABOUT US,,WE DRIVE SUV'S,WE EAT WHAT AND WHEN WE WANT, WE KEEP OUR THERMOSTAT AT 72 DEGREES ALL YR,, And his berlin speech, the wealthy nations,us spoon, should be more equal in sharing with the poorer nations, we need to tear down our beariers between nations,whats that mean spoon,our freedoms get in the way of other nations relationship with us,, we need a global partnership,,for what spoon, to hold the same lifestyles as europe,, we dont need to change for nobody, he said cars in boston causing melting of polar caps, well ,one melting slowly,normal, south pole is growing bigger, he didnt mention that,, listen to him spoon, his words tell his whole agenda

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 52
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 9:57:39 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: 2/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ROCKHARD

jonny dont watch hannity and combs,,,,,hannity has the radio show, if that was said today or this week,well at work or on road while that show on,, and combs is the liberal view of the tv show,hannity the conserv view... plus jonny tv media ,if you notice went from clinton networks to all obama networks,, about 2 minutes aday on mccain and nothing on third party canidates,, so who do you go by

Ron paul, lou dobbs. I like truth and seek it. Always looking. Dont like obama(Too green) dont like mccain(to rich,trickle down wont and hasent worked)

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 53
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 10:08:06 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 807
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		mccain not rich,his wife is wealthy tho,,  so is obama, MILLIONARE, BUT DONT WE MAKE A PROFIT, bet old ron paul got the tough questions they dare not ask obama,, katie did push obama for an answer on the surge,took 3 times,he was getting mad to,  but that was a rarity 

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 54
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 10:19:36 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline 		You are not in the MIDDLE you are a republican period. Independant my ass. I am middle class ,therefore I am against the republicans for using me to make the rich ,super rich. Reagan economics do not and never did work. Get it. I dont like obama because I believe the democrats to be hippocrits by not letting us use our resources because of bs enviormental crap ,were buying oil and goods from coutries that have no regard for the enviornment. If we produce our own goods and energy we can make sure the enviornment is safe. The two partys suck, but id rather have the democrats in charge so they can fix and repair the middle class so the republicans can suck us dry, It seems to be the cycle.

< Message edited by jonnyfishon -- 7/26/2008 1:16:11 AM >

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 55
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/25/2008 11:03:40 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

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Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ROCKHARD

rap,what i was refering to was not like obama trying to apease every foreign nation ,,reagan stood firm and didnt bow to no one,,,that is leadership,, not saying yes sir we are the problem in this world,we will change our ways

You reek of fox radio.

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 56
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/26/2008 12:30:42 AM   
Inukshuk


Posts: 1393
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ROCKHARD

i listened to,a true marxist agenda there,wanting a global partnership,(world govt),against our constitution,no foreign govt shall infringe on our rights,,,blamed us on problems of world,anti american topic,we shouldnt care who abroad likes the way we do things,,, ice caps are melting cause of cars cin boston and china industry,well only north pole has slight shrinkage ,also new report showing underwater volcanic activity is probable cause,plus not first time it melted,at one time mwhole world was under ice,i guess our cars caused that to melt, he mentioned taking from the wealthy of the world to the have nots,that  is BULL,i am not into giving nothing to nobody that dont earn it,,why should i work and give to someone in kenya or somalia, get rid of their dictaters and do for themselves,,tired of hearing this marxist even open his socialistic mouth,,, he is wrong for america,he is great for europe,cause they embrace what he talks about,maybe he should run over there for office, he is not for america,if you vote him in,then you deserve at every cost what you get,didnt even go visit vthe wounded soldiers in germany,cause no media was allowed in,no big coverage for him,,,and yes he is reading and listening thru a teleprompter,


Rock;
Earlier I suggested that you twist what people say to support your own conclusions.  This is a perfect example of this.  You have taken what Obama has said and put your own spin on it, twisting it to mean what you want it to mean.  I think you are 100% wrong on all of these issues.  I dont think Obama is perfect, and I have found some things about him that I find questionable.  However, when compared to McCain he is the better choice in my opinion.  
As far as him not visiting wounded soldiers he was following Pentagon rules.  What you dont know, or at least would not admitt to knowing, is that he did visit wounded soldiers in Iraq, without any cameras or reporters.  The only reason I know this is because a reporter on MSNBC got the information second hand and not directly from the Obama camp or Obama himself.   He had planned on going to visit the wounded in Germany and was apparently upset that he could not. 

On a separate issue:
jonnyfishon has said, many times on these threads, that trickle down, supply-side economics does not work.  I completely agree.  There is a fundamental, inherent problem with this economic theory, and that is, in my opinion,  there is no guarantee that the money will "trickle down" to the middle and lower class workers.  I feel that we have to start with the demand-side and let the money move up, because it always will.  This is one area that I completely disagree with the republican ideology, and find it hard to vote for them because of it.

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 57
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/26/2008 9:50:11 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2709
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		there is no guarantee that the money will "trickle down" to the middle and lower class workers

this was proven years ago.  there was a cry after when tax breaks increased walk away profits. 

rock, this is the most dangerous recession we have ever been in in recent times.  retail down, umemployment rising, gas, utility, food and insurances all going up, while disposable income declining.  gonefishing understand this econ stuff better, but this is not the normal downturn in the economy.  i am sure it has something to do with jobs leaving our shores.  search out this info....it is all out there.

as for profit, the moral question again rises, how much is enough? 

_____________________________

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to Inukshuk)
Post #: 58
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/26/2008 11:36:08 AM   
jonnyfishon

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rapala11

there is no guarantee that the money will "trickle down" to the middle and lower class workers

this was proven years ago.  there was a cry after when tax breaks increased walk away profits. 

rock, this is the most dangerous recession we have ever been in in recent times.  retail down, umemployment rising, gas, utility, food and insurances all going up, while disposable income declining.  gonefishing understand this econ stuff better, but this is not the normal downturn in the economy.  i am sure it has something to do with jobs leaving our shores.  search out this info....it is all out there.

as for profit, the moral question again rises, how much is enough? 

Rock is all for it rap. He refuse to see the harm trickle down does. 90% of rich peoples pay checks are put in their pocket. 90% of the middle class pay checks is spent. Its not rocket science. Alot of great points from you rap, none whatsoever from you rock.

< Message edited by jonnyfishon -- 7/26/2008 12:37:10 PM >

(in reply to rapala11)
Post #: 59
RE: obama in berlin.... - 7/26/2008 11:45:25 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2709
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		i could care less if the rich get richer, no business of mine.  it is when everyone else suffers and sees their lives getting increasingly harder that it becomes apparent that something is wrong.  the middle class of yesterday is the working class of today.  who knows what tomorrow will bring?  i am not versed in the flat tax that has been proposed, but i do hear it is a more fair tax.  truthfully, i don't mind paying taxes.  it provides for safety forces, defense, and other necessities.  but taxation shouldn't be a burden to those who are in the middle class and working class, but not even noticed by others.

_____________________________

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to jonnyfishon)
Post #: 60
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