Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (Full Version)

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eyesandgillz -> Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/24/2008 11:15:49 AM)

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=SubmitComment&o=090000648053d497

If you are a supporter of your second ammendment rights, please take the time to submit a public comment at the above link showing your support for the proposed rule change to allow the concealed carry of handguns within national parks where it is legal to do so in the state where the national park resides.  Currently, it is illegal to carry in the national parks. 

Being a frequent visitor to Padre Island National Seashore in years past, I know how dangerous it can be when you are 40-50 miles from any civilization, with no cell service and in an area known for illegal alien dropoffs, drug runners and the like.  It is not a comfortable feeling knowing you can't defend yourself "legally" if you wanted to. 



Rapscallion -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/24/2008 12:44:45 PM)

Did it ever occur to you that maybe you shouldn't be in an area like that in the first place?



griffon -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/24/2008 1:51:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapscallion

Did it ever occur to you that maybe you shouldn't be in an area like that in the first place?


NO!NO!NO!

National Parks were put into place for all of us to appreciate and enjoy.  While visiting our National Treasures, there should be a degree of security to protect citizens.  If government agencies are unable to enforce such security measures, then it is up to honest, law-abiding citizens to protect themselves. Reasons for visiting National parks are not important nor is it anyone's business.  Stating that we should not visit a place, simply because of illegal activity is supporting a level of Apathy that US Citizens should not have to tolerate.   

Thanks for the Link, I will submit a comment in support of the bill.



MuskyMastr -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/24/2008 1:52:59 PM)

My comment is in.....Have fun living in your "safe" bubble Rapscallion



Rapscallion -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/24/2008 3:02:05 PM)

That's funny. I don't recall saying to stay out of national parks. What I do recall saying is maybe one should not put himself in an area where he knows there are drug activities, frequent illegal alien crossings and various other misdeeds going on. I myself was just in Rocky Mountain National Park not two weeks ago and it was odd that I never felt the need to have a gun to protect myself.
Perhaps because I was smart enough to stay away from any of the danger zones assuming they even existed. I did manage to get out of my safe zone and see over 90% of the entire park but I guess I was just lucky to avoid the drug warlord sections that may exist in the middle of the Rocky Mountains. Of course, choosing to use my brain instead of my gun may have had a little bit to do with it.



eyesandgillz -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/24/2008 3:55:55 PM)

Rap, you really, really can't be serious, can you? 

The entire Padre Island National Seashore (60+ miles of barrier island), has the potential for danger.  Should the numerous fisherman, turtle patrols, and beachcombers have to constantly worry about what goes on down there after the sun goes down or just not visit or camp there, ever?  Its nice that you can enjoy Rocky Mtn. Nat'l park without fear (granted, I would want to have some protection if per chance a mountain lion were to attack) but there are many other national parks that aren't always so peachy, especially the ones along the SW border with Mexico.  Additionally, meth labs and mary j fields do exist in appalachia and other areas and are a danger to park visitors, whether you think so or not.  All we are asking for is for our 2nd ammendment rights to be applied to national park land as well as all the other areas currently allowed.  Sorry, but we can't all be "bubble boys" like yourself.



mikeg -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/24/2008 3:58:45 PM)

Been fishing Padre my whole life and never had any trouble! Did run into a Immigration bust in Baffin Bay once about 10 years ago, but I understand what you mean.

I for one, feel it should be within your right to carry in a park of a legal state.
Kind of hypocritical for them to say there's nothing wrong with people carrying guns, but ban them in parks or goverment buildings..



Rapscallion -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/24/2008 4:14:09 PM)

LOL! I love this new term bubble boy that you felllas have coined. I've probably been to more parts of the world than you guys would see in three lifetimes but that's another topic for another day.
Look man, I don't see what the issue is. If you know a place is fraught with danger, then avoid it. I don't care whether it's a national park or the street behind your house. Maybe if nobody goes and pays their $20.00 to get into this Padre Island cesspool of terror, then they will make an attempt to clean it up.
On the other hand, if you want to play Lone Ranger and go and shoot em up with the bad guys, more power to you. You want to sleep with your 45, have at it. You want to set up a perimeter around your property in order to shoot to kill, go for it. But that doesn't mean I should have to put up with every Tom, Dick and Harry that wants to go off half cocked with a loaded gun in a place where I'm supposed to be able to enjoy the natural beauty of the world with my family. That's why they have park rangers. To take care of any malcontents that may show up looking for trouble.
Maybe you should try one of the less violent parks that exist. Another good one is Olympic National Park outside of Seattle. Nvere feared for my life when I visited there either. Lots of places to go where you won't find trouble. Lots of places to go where you will. It's all up to you and your sidearm. At least outside of a national park.



eyesandgillz -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 9:37:54 AM)

No lone ranger, just asking that my Constitutional rights be extended to areas I help pay to upkeep with my tax dollars.  Pretty simple.  And I am not saying that these parks are "dangerous" and should not be visited.  What I am saying is, it only takes an instant to become a statistic and as a husband and father of 2 young children, I am willing to do whatever it takes, within the limits of the law, to prevent my family or myself from becoming a statistic. 



spoonchucker -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 10:14:55 AM)

 "I am willing to do whatever it takes, within the limits of the law, to prevent my family or myself from becoming a statistic."

Studies have shown, that your gun ownership makes you, and your family 2.7 times MORE likely to become a statistic. 



Rapscallion -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 10:40:33 AM)

You gun guys make me laugh. Always ranting about your constitutional rights being taken away. Reminds me of the scene from the movie Tombstone when the bad guys were balking at not being able to carry their guns in town.
Let me ask you something, when you go into a Wendy's and order a single with no onions and it comes back with onions on it, is your first instinct to shoot the cashier? 
Why is it that you feel you must carry your weapon everywhere you go? Is it a longing to live in the 1860's? If so, then jump in your time machine and head on back 130 years or so and enjoy your constitutional rights. In the meantime, try to stay out of places you know before hand will bring you and yours trouble and you may yet come to enjoy a few of our national treasures.



STEELYS MANFISH -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 10:52:46 AM)

Hey Rap I tend to agree with u on this one. I have been fortunate enough to travel cross country three times now and have seen some truly incredible places with my wife and several friends. Climbing in the Tetons, Touring Yellowstone, exploring the Wind River Range, mountain biking Moab and I have never felt the need to carry in to bring peace of mind during my travels. I feel its just a crutch for people to feel safe. How would 1 gun effectively take out a boat full of drug smugglers? I seriously doubt anyone's weapon is going to save them from a mountain lion attack. They hunt u so the attack will be one of complete surprise.



griffon -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 10:52:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

"I am willing to do whatever it takes, within the limits of the law, to prevent my family or myself from becoming a statistic."

Studies have shown, that your gun ownership makes you, and your family 2.7 times MORE likely to become a statistic. 


I am guessing those studies did not come from Australia or England.  I would bet that there is NO CREDIBLE evidence to back that up.  I guarantee that for every study you quote to support this, there are a dozen that prove otherwise.  How many unarmed innocent citizens are murdered daily in our country vs. those who are armed.

As for Rapscallion.  If you don't like the fact that we own guns... Tough Sh!t.  Rather than me going back in a time machine, why don't you relocate to another country?  I bet we could raise the funds to buy you and your family a one way ticket...  Good Day!



griffon -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 10:59:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEELYS MANFISH

I seriously doubt anyone's weapon is going to save them from a mountain lion attack. They hunt u so the attack will be one of complete surprise.


Don't be so sure about that... There are a lot of joggers and hikers that ventured into national areas that likely wished they had owned a handgun... 

Also, it doesn't have to be a gang of people.  Parks in general are a very good place for criminals to frequent.  Since many fugitives are continually on the run from the law, parks offer temporary residence and the ability to remain quickly mobile.  Bounty Hunters and US Marshalls are well aware of this and continually probe parks (National, State, Private...) looking for said individuals.  Parks are easy targets for criminals to get the means to survive (valuables inside of vehicles, RV's...).  While you may never have felt threatened in our parks, there is a very good chance that you and your family have been closer to "dangerous elements" than you might suspect. 



STEELYS MANFISH -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 11:23:03 AM)

Explain to me how u think any individual would be able to successfully pull and shoot after being attacked by a mountain lion that is going after its preys throat.

Your theory holds true for everyday life as well, we all have probably been around evil bad men at some point.



Rapscallion -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 11:23:04 AM)

Whoa there big fella, don't shoot first and ask questions later. Who ever said I have a problem with you owning a gun? Just love how words that I haven't said continue to be attributed to me. I'll tell you the same thing I told the other fella. You want to sleep with your 45, more power to you. I could care less whether you own a gun or not. From your attitude, it seems you make be lacking significantly somewhere else, hence your staunch defense of gun ownership.
You sound like the type of guy that really should be walking around with a gun. Yeah, you're in control and would never missuse or abuse the priviledge. I feel safer just knowing you are armed and ready to defend our national parks. If your really serious about raising money for me and my family, let me know. I've always wanted to visit Denali National Park in Alaska. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: griffon

quote:

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

"I am willing to do whatever it takes, within the limits of the law, to prevent my family or myself from becoming a statistic."

Studies have shown, that your gun ownership makes you, and your family 2.7 times MORE likely to become a statistic. 


I am guessing those studies did not come from Australia or England.  I would bet that there is NO CREDIBLE evidence to back that up.  I guarantee that for every study you quote to support this, there are a dozen that prove otherwise.  How many unarmed innocent citizens are murdered daily in our country vs. those who are armed.

As for Rapscallion.  If you don't like the fact that we own guns... Tough Sh!t.  Rather than me going back in a time machine, why don't you relocate to another country?  I bet we could raise the funds to buy you and your family a one way ticket...  Good Day!



Rapscallion -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 11:27:07 AM)

Funny, I felt exactly the opposite in every park I have ever been in. Each one seemed to be one of the most safe and peaceful places I had ever seen. I was totally clueless I was surrounded by so many felons and drug dealing gangs. They must have been hiding further up in the high country where I couldn't get to without an oxygen tank. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: griffon

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEELYS MANFISH

I seriously doubt anyone's weapon is going to save them from a mountain lion attack. They hunt u so the attack will be one of complete surprise.


Don't be so sure about that... There are a lot of joggers and hikers that ventured into national areas that likely wished they had owned a handgun... 

Also, it doesn't have to be a gang of people.  Parks in general are a very good place for criminals to frequent.  Since many fugitives are continually on the run from the law, parks offer temporary residence and the ability to remain quickly mobile.  Bounty Hunters and US Marshalls are well aware of this and continually probe parks (National, State, Private...) looking for said individuals.  Parks are easy targets for criminals to get the means to survive (valuables inside of vehicles, RV's...).  While you may never have felt threatened in our parks, there is a very good chance that you and your family have been closer to "dangerous elements" than you might suspect. 



bingsbaits -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 11:27:42 AM)

Kinda funny how you anti-gunners are the first ones to go to the crotch..
Always worried what everybody else is packin...



Rapscallion -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 11:31:25 AM)

Ohhhh, be afraid, be very afraid. Why their have been nearly as many mountain lion fatalities in national parks as there have been gun fatalities nationally in our country. quote]ORIGINAL: STEELYS MANFISH

Explain to me how u think any individual would be able to successfully pull and shoot after being attacked by a mountain lion that is going after its preys throat.

Your theory holds true for everyday life as well, we all have probably been around evil bad men at some point.
[/quote]



Rapscallion -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 11:33:56 AM)

Almost as funny as how you pro-gunners are the first ones to be a packin cause you seem to worry about what you were originally packin.
quote:

ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

Kinda funny how you anti-gunners are the first ones to go to the crotch..
Always worried what everybody else is packin...



STEELYS MANFISH -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 11:43:03 AM)

I am in no way an anti-gunner. If u choose to own a weapon to protect your family and home then do it. My point was I never felt the need to carry in a national park. I feel its just a crutch. People are traveling to unfamiliar areas and having to surround themselves with others which can put them on edge and guarded concerning people's intentions. I am wary of people also but have never felt like man I wish I had my gun.  Someday I would like to hike the appalachian trail and have discussed with others about carrying a concealed weapon for this journey but so far in my travels Ive never felt the need.



spoonchucker -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 12:01:48 PM)

"I am guessing those studies did not come from Australia or England."
 
 
Each of those countries have a LOW household handgun ownership, and a CORRESPONDINGLY low handgun muder rate. So I fail to see your point.
 Percent of households with a handgun, 1991 (1)

United States 29%
Switzerland 14
Finland 7
Germany 7
Belgium 6
France 6
Canada 5
Norway 4
Europe 4
Australia 2
Netherlands 2
United Kingdom 1

Handgun murders (1992)  
Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder
Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000)
-----------------------------------------------------------
United States 13,429 254,521,000    5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023                1.42
Canada 128 27,351,509                  0.47
Sweden 36 8,602,157                     0.42
Australia 13 17,576,354                  0.07
United Kingdom 33 57,797,514         0.06
Japan 60 124,460,481                    0.05



spoonchucker -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 12:25:35 PM)

"How many unarmed innocent citizens are murdered daily in our country vs. those who are armed."

76% of murders, are commited by a member of the household, ( spouse, or family member ), using the very weapon intended to "protect" the victim.

Look, with limited exceptions ( schools, courthouse, govt. buildings ), I really don't care if you CC, or not. If it makes you "feel" safe, or macho, or whatever knock yourself out. Just don't decieve yourself, and let your over confidence get you killed.  Odds are, that if, and when you NEED it, you'll never have the chance to use it.

How many armed, well trained, and already alerted police officers are killed? We have a thread on these boards, about the tragic muder of a hunter ( obviously armed ). The murdered hunters in Michigan, were armed as well.



griffon -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 12:35:57 PM)

Spoon, Those countries still have a high murder rate (perhaps not with guns).  If the citizens were allowed to protect themselves, perhaps innocent casualties could be prevented.  There are studies that show this to be the case.

Steely,  I was definitely not taking shots at you (pardon the pun).  I fish the Appalachia area a lot and I get away from the crowds completely on some of my ventures.  I have been through villages that don't look like they have been visited by outsiders in 50 years.  There are places that make Deliverance look like a real possibility.  The first time I went there, I went unarmed.  That will never happen again.  There are always eyes watching you, no matter how far removed you think you are from civilization, be it in your car or on the stream.  Plus, many of the roads are one lane (at best), switchback dirt roads on mountainsides.  At the bottom of the road there may be a 5 building village, at the top may be another.  There is nothing to stop some local from harming an outsider, and noone would ever know the better.  You better believe I keep my head on a swivel and my senses sharp. Two of the guys in my group of 4 do not own or use guns (they are not against them, just don't feel they have a need to own one).  They are very appreciative that we do have gun owners and 2 of us choose two carry when we are out.  They never fish a beat together and always choose to hook up with the armed anglers when we are in potentially rough areas.  Hopefully I never have to prove why I carry and those around me would never know that I do. 



spoonchucker -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 12:52:57 PM)



























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griffon -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 12:53:06 PM)

Spoon, No doubt on your points.  FYI, it was Wisconsin and I believe only one or two of those individuals were armed.  A little more awareness and alertness could have saved some lives (some were actually shot in the back).

Owning a gun comes with a lot of responsibility.  There is never a guarantee that you will be able to defend yourself or others successfully (especially since you are not the aggressor).  That said, not attempting to defend yourself gives you NO chance for survival from a would be attacker with a firearm. 

As for well trained police officers...  Many of them could be trained much better in firearms defense.  Just because they played college football does not make them good with a firearm.   Being totally ambushed may not be avoidable, but many times officers could have remained out of harms way had they used a little more intelligence, awareness and skill.  The state I see doing the best job of training right now in the east is North Carolina.  Other states would be wise to look at what their police are doing, right down to simple traffic stops.  I know many officers as do we all.  Honestly, I feel that most of them I am aquainted with are no wheres near as proficient as I am (I may be an exception) with a firearm (be it a long gun or handgun).  Much of that is because of training, much of it is because they take there physical traits to be enough to overcome any situation.



STEELYS MANFISH -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 1:06:29 PM)

no problem griffon, just wanted to share my experiences traveling and not feeling the need to carry in.

On a backpacking trip in West Virginia my wife and I lost daylight in search of a spot to camp so we continued on into the night. The trail winded through thick mountain laurel or bogs making it very difficult to find a decent spot to set-up. Finally we were able to pitch a tent right off trail which is a no-no that I m aware of just ran out of options other than to continue walking. Well as we finally settled in we kept noticing a flashlight shining on our spot and this caused the dog to start with the low growls and we got freaked out but held tight inside the tent. The only thing I had was a knife and we were spooked. This went on for over an hour and the light kept shining on us but no foot traffic or voices could be heard except the dog being alert and ready which we thought saved us from an attack. Well daylight soon came and it just so happened the army reserve was training in the area and had a night hike for part of their training. What a night that was but it was a great relief to learn there was no mass murderer trying to flush us out.[:D] oh and yes the thought of having a gun did cross my mind but can u imagine that conundrum?



S-10 -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 9:47:25 PM)

Spoon has some more of the liberal anti gunners charts and statistics. While perhaps accurate, they are very misleading. Some more of the liars, damm liars and statistics.  What isn't shown is that many of those countries, example-England had a lower homicide rate than the U.S. before gun control. Also not shown is that blacks account for 6 times the victims and 7 times the assiliants in homicides in the U.S. There are many studies refuting his claim of gun owners  2.7 times as likely to be a statistic although we are left to wonder what kind of statistic he is refering to. How does his charts account for the several hundred thousand fully automatic weapons the Swiss have in their homes in a country of 7 million? Must be murders row over there except the chart says different. I choose not to carry a handgun but that's my own choice and I feel safer (and am safer) knowing  the criminals just aren't sure if I may be carrying or not. As for animals --read the stories of the folks who survived attacks and how many opportunities  during the attack they had to use a gun if one was available.



gobyking -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 10:22:24 PM)

I was going to ask where you found the stat of 76% of all handgun murders are from the the very houshold that it is in to protect. That is really high. Maybe it is all firearm murders,or domestic murders.
I think our inner city savage youth are to blame more for this high handgun murder rate. If it's not about drugs, it is about turf from another gang or just plain criminal activity. And that is not meaning it is a black thing only, although the numbers would indicate that. There are a lot of young white and hispanic scumbags too, we've all seen them with the pants hanging off their ass without a belt and they use one free arm to hold them up, that's smart. And the flat brim hat on sideways like someone punched them in the head,we would be so lucky. 
Hey, I had a friend in high school who was not right in the head. His girlfriend broke up with him so he blew his head off with a shotgun in his car. Should we ban shotguns? I think so because I'm afraid now and scarred from that incident. (Pussification of America)



jonnyfishon -> RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change (7/25/2008 10:33:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

I was going to ask where you found the stat of 76% of all handgun murders are from the the very houshold that it is in to protect. That is really high. Maybe it is all firearm murders,or domestic murders.
I think our inner city savage youth are to blame more for this high handgun murder rate. If it's not about drugs, it is about turf from another gang or just plain criminal activity. And that is not meaning it is a black thing only, although the numbers would indicate that. There are a lot of young white and hispanic scumbags too, we've all seen them with the pants hanging off their ass without a belt and they use one free arm to hold them up, that's smart. And the flat brim hat on sideways like someone punched them in the head,we would be so lucky. 
Hey, I had a friend in high school who was not right in the head. His girlfriend broke up with him so he blew his head off with a shotgun in his car. Should we ban shotguns? I think so because I'm afraid now and scarred from that incident. (Pussification of America)

THE KKK AGREES.[sm=blackey.gif][sm=ak.gif]



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