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RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/25/2008 10:36:00 PM   
gobyking

 

Posts: 652
Status: offline 		Glad you agree.

(in reply to jonnyfishon)
Post #: 31
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/25/2008 10:42:36 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

Glad you agree.

White power(bush thoughts)

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Post #: 32
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 1:24:26 AM   
gobyking

 

Posts: 652
Status: offline 		Didn't you make a black joke that went wrong last month? Didn't you say Jews own New York City since then?

Anyway, I still think the handgun stats are possibly flawed by your post Spoon. Please provide the stats and I hope this is from an official government website that tracks the incidents, not a questionable anti's website.

(in reply to jonnyfishon)
Post #: 33
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 11:29:34 AM   
jonnyfishon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

Didn't you make a black joke that went wrong last month? Didn't you say Jews own New York City since then?

Anyway, I still think the handgun stats are possibly flawed by your post Spoon. Please provide the stats and I hope this is from an official government website that tracks the incidents, not a questionable anti's website.

I dont care if someone cant take a joke. Jews do own nyc and they dont pay taxes(most find a way not to) I am friends with plenty of black people in fact my girl is purubian and part black. I happen to think race is funny, so be it. If my black joke went wrong thats because people are too sensitive in todays society. Call me a racist , that fine, and funny . Ok my nigga.

(in reply to gobyking)
Post #: 34
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 7:46:40 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 789
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		bottom line,eevery kind of gun law is unconstitutional,,our forefathers never said when and where but we have the right to own and bear arms,,so i say yes we should be able to carry into any state or federal park we please, no restrictions ,except it be by a law abidding citizen,, spoon,your statistics just dont hold up,, englands murder rate is steadily rising due to no self protection from their citizens,not just guns but knives,clubs ,strangulations,, nothing to prevent from a breakin,,, a british author has a book out now, about these home burglaries are happening in daylight ,even instances while people are still home,,,whats to stop these crooks,there is no protection

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Post #: 35
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 9:56:06 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

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Joined: 2/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ROCKHARD

bottom line,eevery kind of gun law is unconstitutional,,our forefathers never said when and where but we have the right to own and bear arms,,so i say yes we should be able to carry into any state or federal park we please, no restrictions ,except it be by a law abidding citizen,, spoon,your statistics just dont hold up,, englands murder rate is steadily rising due to no self protection from their citizens,not just guns but knives,clubs ,strangulations,, nothing to prevent from a breakin,,, a british author has a book out now, about these home burglaries are happening in daylight ,even instances while people are still home,,,whats to stop these crooks,there is no protection

Some are unconstitutional. In some areas of the usa ,people need education and are unable to understand what a gun means. Many which happen to have a clean record.Also when there were more gun on the streets and less cops in nyc , death and destruction of neihborhoods. Now many of those "hoods" are safer and 20 times their value ,clean, Nice. It would be different in ny state, where people are not so high strung and tense. People who live and work in the city are always at their "threshold". Its a fast pace life , Im glad there arent alot of guns when i am in traffic on the tapan-zee bridge . In fact IM glad I didnt have a gun on many occasions cause people do stupid sh!t and then they start with you . I want a side arm in the country, loaded, at all times. I guess sometimes one apple spoils the bunch.  

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 36
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 10:22:47 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline 		"spoon,your statistics just dont hold up,, "

First of all, they are not MY statistics, they are the UN's. Second, Why don't they hold up? Because YOU say they, don't? Because YOU don't WANT to believe it? Give me some BETTER more accurate figures, not YOUR opinion once again stated as fact.

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Post #: 37
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 10:27:02 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

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Joined: 2/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

"spoon,your statistics just dont hold up,, "

First of all, they are not MY statistics, they are the UN's. Second, Why don't they hold up? Because YOU say they, don't? Because YOU don't WANT to believe it? Give me some BETTER more accurate figures, not YOUR opinion once again stated as fact.


bUT SPOON rOCk is aLL SuBStance, DUud

(in reply to spoonchucker)
Post #: 38
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 10:27:11 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline 		"How does his charts account for the several hundred thousand fully automatic weapons the Swiss have in their homes in a country of 7 million? Must be murders row over there except the chart says different."

Switzerland is frequently cited as an example of a country with high gun ownership and a low murder rate. However, Switzerland also has a high degree of gun control, and actually makes a better argument for gun regulation than gun liberalization.

Switzerland keeps only a small standing army, and relies much more heavily on its militia system for national defense. This means that most able-bodied civilian men of military age keep weapons at home in case of a national emergency. These weapons are fully automatic, military assault rifles, and by law they must be kept locked up. Their issue of 72 rounds of ammunition must be sealed, and it is strictly accounted for. This complicates their use for criminal purposes, in that they are difficult to conceal, and their use will be eventually discovered by the authorities.

As for civilian weapons, the cantons (states) issue licenses for handgun purchases on a "must issue" basis. Most, but not all, cantons require handgun registration. Any ammunition bought on the private market is also registered. Ammunition can be bought unregistered at government subsidized shooting ranges, but, by law, one must use all the ammunition at the range. (Unfortunately, this law is not really enforced, and gives Swiss gun owners a way to collect unregistered ammunition.) Because so many people own rifles, there is no regulation on carrying them, but 15 of the 26 cantons have regulations on carrying handguns.

Despite these regulations, Switzerland has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world. A review of the statistics: Percent of households with a handgun, 1991 (1)

United States 29%
Switzerland 14
Finland 7
Germany 7
Belgium 6
France 6
Canada 5
Norway 4
Europe 4
Australia 2
Netherlands 2
United Kingdom 1

Handgun murders (1992) (2)

Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder
Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000)
-----------------------------------------------------------
United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42
Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47
Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42
Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07
United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06
Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05

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(in reply to jonnyfishon)
Post #: 39
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 10:29:10 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

Posts: 1257
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline 		Thats what ive been trying to say rock, what spoon said.

(in reply to spoonchucker)
Post #: 40
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 10:30:25 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline 		"There are many studies refuting his claim of gun owners  2.7 times as likely to be a statistic"

Then surley you could cite one. 

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Post #: 41
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 10:34:43 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline 		" was going to ask where you found the stat of 76% of all handgun murders are from the the very houshold that it is in to protect. That is really high. Maybe it is all firearm murders,or domestic murders."

I didn't say handgun murders, just homicides. I DID mean to say often ( not to imply always ) using the very weapon intended to defend the household. 


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Post #: 42
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/26/2008 10:45:07 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

Posts: 1257
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

"There are many studies refuting his claim of gun owners  2.7 times as likely to be a statistic"

Then surley you could cite one. 

Rock is searching the internet for substace as fast as he can, please stand by .

(in reply to spoonchucker)
Post #: 43
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 8:15:18 AM   
S-10

 

Posts: 1373
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		Some more of that 16 year old data from The U.N. to help them convince you to ban all guns worldwide. Probably paid for by the Democrats favorite anti gun money man George Sorous. Sorry I'am not computer literate enough to post all the fancy charts and graphs but try going on the net and type in any of the following.----World murder rates and their relation to firearms ownership---- NRA-ILA Legislation----NCPA Crime-Does gun control reduce Crime. ------May also want to question why Spoons charts don't include all 200 countries--- of course then you couldn't claim the U.S. having the highest rate could you. Some more of the lies, damm lies and statistics. I didn't see where it was noted the U.S. violent crime rate has plunged since 1991 even though there are 70 million more guns here. Must not fit into what you are trying to prove. There are dozens of studies refuting most of the anti gunners claims if anyone cares to do a bit of research. In most cases the devil is in the details just as the spin on REASONABLE restrictions. That one should keep the lawyers busy for the next decade. Just remember that OBAMA is anti gun and will put anti gun judges on the Superme court if elected. Won't do you any good to own a gun if they decide banning ammunition is a reasonable restriction. The Joyce Foundation is a wealthy anti gun organization that funds studies that trys to paint a negative picture of Guns and gun owners, and lobbies for anti gun legislation. OBAMA was on their board of Directors for eight years.

(in reply to jonnyfishon)
Post #: 44
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 8:39:48 AM   
S-10

 

Posts: 1373
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		The 2.7 number is another example of -lets just tell them what we want them to know----It just assumes that nobody has ever used a gun to thwart a would be criminal or that just by the fact the homeowner might have a gun the criminal stayed away. One thing is true and that is most homicides are drug related and the death rate from drug overdose is equal to or greater than that from guns. Solve the drug problem and you solve the homicide problem.

(in reply to S-10)
Post #: 45
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 11:28:20 AM   
bingsbaits


Posts: 771
Joined: 3/1/2007
From: spartansburg,pa
Status: offline 		I wouldn't call any of the numbers that come out of the UN credible....

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Post #: 46
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 12:32:16 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline 		S-10,

Neither I, nor the UN said the US has the highest homicide rate in the world.

"Despite these regulations, Switzerland has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world."

The US ranked 24th in overall homicide rates. As WAS indicated in the chart I posted.

As for being 2.7 times more likely to be a statistic. This is NOT due just to homicide, it includes suicide, and accidental shooting ( by the victim, or another household member ), as well.

"One thing is true and that is most homicides are drug related and the death rate from drug overdose is equal to or greater than that from guns. Solve the drug problem and you solve the homicide problem."

Actually most violent crime is ALCOHOL ( technically a drug ) related.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

(in reply to bingsbaits)
Post #: 47
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 12:57:01 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline
S-10, You are correct that homicide, and violent crime rates have declined since 1993, ( although they increased in 2 of the past 4 years ). In roughly 2/3 of homicides, the victim KNEW their assailent. They would unlikely be prepared to defend themselves, even if they owned a firearm.
 
 From the US justice dept.
Victim/Offender Relationship, 1976-2005







All homicides,
1976-2005














Percent
Number







Total
100.0%
594,276


Stranger
13.9%
82,428


Nonstranger





Spouse
7.0%
41,700

 
 
Other family
8.0%
47,358

 
 
Boyfriend/Girlfriend
3.8%
22,829

 
 
Other Acquaintance
32.1%
190,767


Relationship undetermined
35.2%
209,194





< Message edited by spoonchucker -- 7/27/2008 12:58:15 PM >

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GL&TC

(in reply to spoonchucker)
Post #: 48
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 1:11:44 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline 		S-10,

The supreme court just secured. re-affirmed your right to own a firearm, electing Obama will not change that.

As for CC. As I stated before, knock yourself out ( I've CC'd myself ). But this macho, "I'm the great defender of my family" , belief is misplaced. The "bad guys" know who they are, and what their intention is, THEY have the advantage whether you are armed. or not. And if they are under the influence, as you suggest most are, the possibilty of you being armed won't even cross their mind let alone deter them.

How is it that there were robberies, murders, and even rapes, back in the 1800's when pretty much everyone was "packing"?

< Message edited by spoonchucker -- 7/27/2008 1:12:38 PM >

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

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Post #: 49
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 4:00:30 PM   
gobyking

 

Posts: 652
Status: offline 		"76% of murders, are commited by a member of the household, ( spouse, or family member ), using the very weapon intended to "protect" the victim"

Wrong, you're stat from the US Dept of Justice makes that clear.7.0%,8.0%, and 3.8% don't add up to 76%.

Other aquaintance could be anything,we all know a lot of people, that also includes the drug supplier.That doesn't make him a member of the household.

"In roughly 2/3 of homicides, the victim KNEW their assailent."
 
7%,8%,3.8%,and 32% is HALF. Just because I know a neighbor,dealer,or someone from town doesn't mean that they are member of my household.
 
Google Kennesaw,Georgia gun law. The law was enacted in 1982 that all males of the household are required to own a firearm with exceptions to felons,physically or mentally disabled,or those that are of a religion that doesn't adhere to gun use. This is a suburb of Atlanta and has seen increased grown in the population since then,yet all the crime rates have dropped to an extremely low level compared to the national average.


(in reply to spoonchucker)
Post #: 50
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 7:34:53 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 789
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		jonjon,why you keep including my name in with these posts,i am out of this conversation,but since you included me ,i agree with s-10 and goby,, bb.baits,that is 100% correct, un is not credible by no standards

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Post #: 51
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 7:43:20 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

Posts: 1257
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ROCKHARD

jonjon,why you keep including my name in with these posts,i am out of this conversation,but since you included me ,i agree with s-10 and goby,, bb.baits,that is 100% correct, un is not credible by no standards

Youll never agree with spoon, I happen to think the un is full of crap anyway. Your always included, righty.

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 52
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 7:46:34 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 789
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		hey we agree,on UN issue,,, 

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 53
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 8:45:07 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline 		"76% of murders, are commited by a member of the household, ( spouse, or family member ), using the very weapon intended to "protect" the victim"

Wrong, you're stat from the US Dept of Justice makes that clear.7.0%,8.0%, and 3.8% don't add up to 76%"

Your right. The 76% figure refers to homicides commited INSIDE the home. It was not an intentional omission, I just forget to add phrases at times while I'm typing. 


_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 54
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 9:02:29 PM   
S-10

 

Posts: 1373
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		Spoon-- Doesn't Russia count as an industrialized nation. Seems someone forgot to post their homicide rates. Couldn't be some picking and choosing going on could there.  By the way -it's about 3x ours---------------Obama can't keep me from owning a firearm for protection but he sure can make it tough to get ammo, or to use it for anything else as you are well aware. He will be selecting the justicies that will define REASONABLE restrictions and most Liberals define reasonable to be as close to NO GUNS as possible as you well know.

(in reply to spoonchucker)
Post #: 55
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/27/2008 9:10:41 PM   
ROCKHARD


Posts: 789
Joined: 10/13/2007
Status: offline 		that is the next way for them to get at our right to own guns,,no one should think that ruling closed the attacks on our 2nd amendment,, they wont stop til they win, notice i didnt say liberal attack,im learning

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WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE,, SOME MEN YOU JUST CANT REACH

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Post #: 56
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/28/2008 2:02:51 AM   
gobyking

 

Posts: 652
Status: offline 		 
Spoon
"Your right. The 76% figure refers to homicides commited INSIDE the home. It was not an intentional omission, I just forget to add phrases at times while I'm typing." 

So, homicides in the home MAY be a 76%. Show that stat please because I find that quite interesting also,in a wrong sort of way. Prove me wrong please via UN stats, or even Dept of Justice Stats!

< Message edited by gobyking -- 7/28/2008 2:09:04 AM >

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 57
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/28/2008 8:45:05 AM   
S-10

 

Posts: 1373
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		( 76 % of homicides ) This study was done interviewing about 330 people by a Dr. Arthur Kellermann and is one of the more controversial studies on gun violence. The gun control groups cite it as evidence that guns shouldn't be allowed, while pro gun groups point out it's many flaws and the fact it is was done by an anti gun doctor for a anti gun organization. Dr Kellermann works with the Center for DISEASE control and is assoiciated with the Workd Health Organization which is pushing for the elimination of private ownership of firearms. There are a number of counter studies done to refuite his claims and as usual it depends on which side of the fence you sit. One thing that's true is a large number of deaths in the home are suicides with gun. The problem is no one knows how many would not have happened without a gun present and how many folks would have just used another method to end their life. Many anti gunners claim next to none would have occured without a gun being present and use that assumption to bolster their argument. These are the type of studies that get funded by the Joyce Foundation and are typical of choosing the outcome you want and finding the facts to support that outcome while ignoring any information to the contraray.

(in reply to gobyking)
Post #: 58
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/28/2008 9:25:12 AM   
jackq

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Altoona/Newville, PA.
Status: offline 		S-10,
You are right about these studies. ALMOST any of the studies you read (unless done by an independent group) are done by a bunch of whores. They'll do or say what ever you want as long as the $$$$ is there.

(in reply to S-10)
Post #: 59
RE: Concealed carry in Nat'l Parks - rule change - 7/28/2008 10:59:15 AM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 5662
Status: offline 		"Spoon-- Doesn't Russia count as an industrialized nation. Seems someone forgot to post their homicide rates."

THe figures for Russia, are most certainly on the graph I posted, and yes it is much higher than the US. I don't know the criteria used to determine whether a nation is indusrtrialized, And I'm not sure Russia fits into that category given it's system of government, and percentage of economy based on industry. It is certainly becoming one ( as is China ). Russia is struggling TO industrialize, and move toward a capitalistic nation, along with this they are seeing a dramatic rise in organized crime ( as we did in the early-mid 1900's ) which accounts for much of the violence. Our incarceration rate ( highest per capita ), would lend credence to the high crime rates indicated.

The 76% doesn't differentiate methods ( guns, knives, strangulation ). The point being made is not about how, but who. Homicides commited in the home, are far more likely to be the result of some conflict within the household, than from an intruder.

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(in reply to jackq)
Post #: 60
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