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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/19/2008 3:48:29 PM   
track2514


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indsguiz

The question is: Is gambling the answer for Pittsburgh and other cities economic problems. You should be pretty familiar with gambling being from Kentucky and I know the Churchill Downs has been talking about adding slot machines for years and I think I just heard a few days ago that they are moving forward.

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/19/2008 7:39:35 PM   
indsguiz


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track,
    The cities that depend on gambling monies to survive usually don't realize the benefits they expected.  It starts off great and then the revenues drop off dramatically as the novelty wears off.  As far as I know outside of Vegas, Reno, and Atlantic City.  Next to no cities have been successful promoting a gambling image. 
    I would imagine Philly and Pittsburg would like to stop some of the traffic going to AC or WVa but I just can't see myself jumping on a plane for a fun weekend in Philly.
    We have Ceasars Riverboat down here by l-ville and boy does Churchill downs want to stop the people from going across the river.  But Churchill Downs has it's own "fat cat" image that most people down here don't like.  I think if there could be three or four small casinos across KY  (not at any horse race tracks) the people would approve but the give more money to the tracks . . . no way. 
    So gambling may work out for the income of some of the cities but only for the locals not for tourists.  And tourists are the ones who spend money on hotels and resturants and rentals.

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Post #: 92
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/20/2008 7:28:30 PM   
rapala11

 

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just saw on the news tonight that vegas is beginning to slide due to the economy.  fewer rooms being let, few monies spent on gambling and shows.  vehicle traffic is down also.  at the same time, more hotel rooms are being added, but may remain empty for some time.

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Post #: 93
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/20/2008 9:23:45 PM   
S-10

 

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The big thing too is they have built casinos almost to the saturation point where none of them will make what they used too. The wife and I used to go to Atlantic City and Canada once a year or so. Now the Senecas built one an hour away as well as Erie if you like the horses. The indians offer a free room plus some gambling money and fairly lucuritive points for free food if you do much gambling at all. I could care less if the place burned down but the wife likes it and it beats trying to get her a present she likes. The white man just thought they whipped the indians, we took their land now they are taking our money.

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Post #: 94
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/20/2008 9:33:22 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: S-10

The big thing too is they have built casinos almost to the saturation point where none of them will make what they used too. The wife and I used to go to Atlantic City and Canada once a year or so. Now the Senecas built one an hour away as well as Erie if you like the horses. The indians offer a free room plus some gambling money and fairly lucuritive points for free food if you do much gambling at all. I could care less if the place burned down but the wife likes it and it beats trying to get her a present she likes. The white man just thought they whipped the indians, we took their land now they are taking our money.

Its the very least they can do.

< Message edited by jonnyfishon -- 7/20/2008 9:36:04 PM >

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Post #: 95
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/20/2008 9:40:17 PM   
rapala11

 

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funny, but i always thought the north beat the south in the civil war, but not true....seems to be an abundance of jobs down yonder as well as affordable housing.  we beat native americans, the south, japan, germany and so on.  every time we beat someone, they seem to prosper in the end.  

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/20/2008 9:53:01 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rapala11

funny, but i always thought the north beat the south in the civil war, but not true....seems to be an abundance of jobs down yonder as well as affordable housing.  we beat native americans, the south, japan, germany and so on.  every time we beat someone, they seem to prosper in the end.  

True . And now that our gov. declared war on the middle class, maybe we will prosper in the end. Also we didnt fight the jews and they own nyc .

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/20/2008 9:53:38 PM   
S-10

 

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Never thought of it that way but your right. Not sure we can afford to win too many more wars.

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Post #: 98
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/20/2008 9:57:21 PM   
rapala11

 

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let's surrender now and we will all be rich, without having to gamble.

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Post #: 99
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/20/2008 10:00:18 PM   
jonnyfishon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rapala11

let's surrender now and we will all be rich, without having to gamble.

Ill take that bet.

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Post #: 100
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 12:54:46 AM   
track2514


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The sad thing is Rap whats happening in Vegas may just be a sign of worse things to come. If the casinos in the Burgh fail, the politicians will be forced to raise taxes even higher than they are now. I still can't believe how high property taxes are in Allegheny County. My dad recently sold his house and moved to Washington County. He was paying $6,000 per year in property taxes on a house that was assessed under $200,000. I recently purchased a house in Minneapolis for $200,000 and my taxes are approximately $1,500 for the year. I laughed because before my agent showed us the house, he said the house is great but the area it is in has high taxes. I told him he should visit the Burgh sometime if he wanted to see high property taxes. Oh by the way even though my parents now live a little bit farther away from Pittsburgh and gas prices have gone up, they are still saving money because their taxes are over $4,000 per year cheaper.

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Post #: 101
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 1:22:29 AM   
gobyking

 

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Sadly, the flight from Allegheny County because of the high taxes have come long before gambling was even a pipe dream. Possibly true, the cost of the next tax increase to pay for the casino may even drive more people to locate to the surrounding counties,although the surrounding counties may decide to cash in on the exodus. I have no real interest in the possibility of people falling on hard times because of poor vice decisions.Sure, it's sad, but until a relative comes begging to me for some cash, not a big deal to me. By the way, part of the reason there are so many Pittsburgh sports fans across the country is directly related to the inability to change with the times of the previous elected officials many decades before. It is entirely possible that the casino may provide more money to a decaying county infrastructure,thus helping the many at the expense of an addicted few.

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 5:29:30 AM   
jon_e_si

 

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How about instead of raising taxes, the politicians cut the bureaucracy and learn to spend tax dollars more efficiently??

Want lower property tax?? WV - "America's Best Kept Secret"!!

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Post #: 103
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 9:41:54 AM   
rapala11

 

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ironic, but we seem to have a lot of burghers coming across our state line to settle here.  housing is far cheaper in poland, new middletown, boardman and columbiana.  never saw so many steeler car decals.

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Post #: 104
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 12:05:59 PM   
spoonchucker


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jon,

That only holds true INTILL folks start flocking there. As urban flight ( mostly upper middle class whites ) spreads to the surrounding rural communities, so do the taxes they sought to avoid. It happened in Cranberry, and it's happening in other areas around the city. Nearly as soon as they arrive, they want/demand, the same services, and protections they left. They want improvements to the rural road that they bought property on ( repavement, widening, storm water abatement. ). The influx of population requires bigger, or expanded schools, expansion of water, and sewerage treatment facilaties, and lines. It also brings the need to expand protective services ( fire, police, ambulance ). This doesn't include the amenties oten demanded ( bigger, better parks, playgrounds, libraries. etc. ). The costs, almost invariabley exceed the increase revenues from the extended tax base alone.

Sometimes they tell lies
and put ‘em in a truthful disguise.
— Gil Scott-Heron
We’ve all heard it: “This town must grow to thrive!” or “We have to grow or die!” This is the major tenet the “growth machine” — that network of people in every community which profits from residential development — repeats constantly as a large part of its justification for ceaseless residential expansion.
Sprawl in Marion. Does this have to be MV/Lisbon’s Future?There’s just one problem with it: It’s a myth. It’s propaganda spread by an industry which needs to justify itself to continue reaping the enormous profits generated by subdivision construction and suburban sprawl, regardless of what happens to existing towns as a result.

There’s no question that many of those who spread this notion actually believe it. They’ve heard it from those before them and everyone around them. A would-be developer, for instance, hears it from established developers, lenders, builders, and others who profit from subdivision development. They, in turn, heard the same tenet from others around them. (This is one reason I don’t question their character or intentions as much as one might expect.) Because they haven’t actually researched the issue few attempt to offer evidence to back up the assertion.
In fact, a little digging reveals a great deal of evidence which reveals exactly why the “grow or die” tenet is just wrong. Look closely and you’ll see it rests on a number of smaller myths, sub-myths if you will. Eben Fodor debunks many of these in Better NOT Bigger. In future installments we’ll cover a bit of the same ground, and touch on a couple of myths not dealt with by Fodor. To pursue this topic in more depth I refer you to Fodor.
Let’s begin with one of the most commonly heard smaller myths.
Myth #1 — “Residential growth brings in needed tax dollars.”
Fodor provides all sorts of evidence to dispel this myth. (pp. 39-42) But his book’s most recent copyright is 1999. Since then, much additional evidence has accumulated. It now includes well over 100 studies from around the country which have shown that residential development nearly always costs the community more than the tax revenues it brings in.
Beginning in the late ’80s, the American Farmland Trust (AFT) began developing “cost of community services” (COCS) studies to compare residential development to farmland, open land, and commercial/industrial property with regard to how much they generate in tax revenue versus the costs of public services they require. The latter involve things like road maintenance, police and fire service, educational expenses, traffic control, and various forms of infrastructure maintenance.
If completed, Stonebrook will cover nearly one third as much land as the whole of older Mount Vernon.Other organizations, from community groups to local governments, followed AFT’s lead, conducting their own COCS studies of the revenues versus costs of residential development versus undeveloped land, farmland, and commercial/industrial land. The results could hardly be clearer. In nearly every case studied, for every dollar in tax revenue generated by undeveloped land or farmland or commercial/industrial property, considerably less than a dollar is required to provide necessary community services to the property. That is, these forms of property pay for themselves. They are a net plus to a city.
On the other hand, precisely the opposite is true of residential development! In nearly every case, for every dollar in tax revenue generated by residential development, something more than a dollar is spent on community services. Residential development fails to pay for itself and is a net loss to a city.
The Ratio’s the Thing
The methodology of a COCS study is procedurally burdensome, involving sifting through and organizing a great deal of financial and budgetary data from a particular town or county. The idea, though, is conceptually simple. In the end, a simple ratio of revenue to cost of services tells the tale. As a typical example, a 2002 COCS study of Saguache County Colorado was sponsored by Saguache County, the Sonoran Institute, the National Association of Counties, and AFT. It found that for residential development in Saguache County the ratio was 1 : 1.17. That means that for every dollar of revenue generated by residential development in Saguache County, $1.17 was spent on community services.
Unlike residential development, farmland and open land pay their own way.Looking across studies, the median ratio of revenue dollars to cost of community services is about 1 : 1.15. That means that half the communities studied have ratios worse than that. Frequently it’s around 1 : 1.40 and even worse. Virtually all the communities with ratios better than 1 : 1.15 bunch between there and break-even. It’s extremely difficult, in other words, to find a town where residential development actually brings in more revenue than it costs.
Pockets Feeling a Little Empty?
While not perfect, COCS studies provide clear evidence that residential development is rarely the economic boon to a community that developers and the government officials they’ve lobbied so successfully would have you believe. Indeed, it is typically a financial drain, creating a deficit which has to be made up somehow. How is it made up? To the extent possible, it has to be made up by the revenues from commercial and farm/open land. Clearly, without the increasing deficit created by ongoing residential development and its demand for services, our towns would have a much larger pool of funds to put toward beneficial community projects. Ultimately, while the costs to service such development reflect a wide range of services funded by a number of sources, the money comes out of our pockets as taxpayers.

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Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

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Post #: 105
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 12:33:24 PM   
spoonchucker


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"I have no real interest in the possibility of people falling on hard times because of poor vice decisions.Sure, it's sad, but until a relative comes begging to me for some cash, not a big deal to me."

Goby,

Several elected, and non-elected public officials around here have been caught pilfering public monies to cover gambling losses. The same is occuring in the private sector as well. How many have NOT been caught, and how much is actually recovered? It IS costing YOU, and probabley more than you know.

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Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 1:17:37 PM   
gobyking

 

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Considering the small amounts pilfered from gov't monies, I would be more worried about the large amounts added to our collective national debt which is $9 trillion and counting, $32,000 for every living man, woman, and child America. That should put it close to $100,000 individual debt for the true working person if you discount underage,welfared, homeless, retired, and disabled. And that was all legally done by a certain few men in power and no one is be tried before a court or jury. Ain't politics grand?

Anyway back to topic,no gambling doesn't bother me.
 

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Post #: 107
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 1:35:46 PM   
spoonchucker


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"Anyway back to topic,no gambling doesn't bother me."

Doesn't particularlly bother me either. I'm just pointing out that you DO carry some of the costs of gambling, or any other vice. Whether you partake, or not. If you lived a "frontier life", in some log cabin in the wilderness, your "choices" may affect only you. However, if you choose to be part of the social structure ( employeee,spouse,parent,neighbor ), then your "choices" DO impact others.


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Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 1:43:35 PM   
gobyking

 

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I swear I had a political science professor at Penn State that was quite strikingly similar to you posts. I was always frustrated by him(and you). Good point, Spoon.

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 1:55:29 PM   
MuskyMastr


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Just won an online tourney for $12....woohoo   buyin was .10.

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/21/2008 6:13:33 PM   
DanesDad

 

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I dont care what Pittsburgh government decides to do with gambling proceeds.  Hell, we already know they're incompetant, so there is no reason to think that they wont screw this up too.  The nice thing about it is: they wont get a cent from me!  I dont live in the county and tho I may visit the casino once, just to check it out, that's the only time I'll ever go there.  OK, so they may make 30 or 40 dollars off of me...tops!  Hell, they're already leeching off drinkers down there (I dont drink in Allegheny county either).  The more Onorato, Ravenstahl and the rest of those misfits and screwballs do, the less reason I have to go there and spend money.  My entertainment dollar (already being squeezed by the outrageous gas prices) goes further elsewhere.

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/23/2008 3:09:19 PM   
track2514


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Danes Dad

I definitely agree with you about the Pittsburgh government. My father currently works for Allegheny county as a property assessment officier. I am amazed at some of the stories he has told me. For example, he told me about a case where an older couple living in Wilkinsburg had their property taxes raised and when they appealed they lost simply because they did not understand the system or have the money to get an appraisal, but a couple in Upper St. Clair had their assessment reduced simply because they understood the system better and paid for an appraisal. So the couple in Wilkinsburg is basically living in a house that they couldn't sell for more than $20,000-$30,000 and they pay higher property taxes than the couple from Upper St. Clair who live in a house that is worth approximately $250,000. The system is broken and I do not understand how the allegheny county government expects to attract businesses and residents with higher taxes than most of the country. Continuing to raise taxes is not the way to attract new residents.  

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If its brown flush it down. Here we go Steelers...

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RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/23/2008 10:11:10 PM   
*commander*


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whats the property tax on a $20-30k home in wilkinsburg? $80-$150/month. youre saying that the taxes on a
$250,000 home in upper st. clair can be appraised and appealed and the owners of the home will only pay $80-150/month???!!! hmmmmmm. how about getting the info and posting it to help out allegheny taxpayers. i know some fellas paying $4-6k in allegheny property taxes(i used to be one of them) that sure would like to see this magic formula.

< Message edited by *commander* -- 7/23/2008 10:15:56 PM >

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Post #: 113
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/23/2008 11:02:26 PM   
track2514


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Commander

What your not seeing is the assessed value versus the actual value. The home in Wilkinsburg is currently assessed for $165,000 because the homeowners did not appeal with a new appraisal (which costs money and alot of people don't know that it is necessary to win their appeal). There is a large disparity between the assessed and actual values. The people from Wilkinsburg brought evidence of newspaper clippings about violent crimes such as murders on their street for the past years, but this evidence was not valid in an assessment trial and my dad was forced to throw it out and keep their assessment the same at $165,000. The value of $20-30,000 I was getting is what my dad said the house would be worth if the people were seriously interested in selling it. The people in this trial even brought pictures of the neighbors house which is a boarded up crack house, the picture showed a no trespassing by the Wilkinsburg police order so I think you can get the idea. So the moral of the story is the people without money or knowledge of the appeals process are getting the short end of the stick in the Burgh.

Now on to the Upper St. Clair example: This couples house is currently assessed for $250,000, but when they appeal, they spend $600 on a new apprasial and they also bring a comparative market analysis of recently sold homes in their neighborhood. The have their lawyer present all of the evidence in a manner that demonstrates their house in the current market conditions should only be worth $155,000 and based on the procedures my dad is forced to rule in their favor and their new assessment is $155,000. So in this case, the couple from Upper St. Clair in the much more sought after neighborhood and school system pays lower taxes than the couple in Wilkinsburg. After visiting the property and viewing all the information, my dad had to lower the assessment, but he said if he were to sell the house he would list it for $250,000. So since the Upper St. Clair couple paid an attorney and knew the procedures they pay lower taxes than the Wilkinsburg couple. Since my dad has been working for the county for a few years now, he has hundreds more examples that are similar to this.

This is a sad truth about the failures of the Allegheny county government. The system s broken and all of these homes need to be re-assessed or many of the people in areas like Wilkinsburg will be homeless. Oh and by the way, the couple in Wilkinsburg is currently paying $5,500 per year in property taxes or $458 a month, which was over 50 percent of their mortgage payment and another piece of evidence my dad had to throw out. My dad does everything he can for these people, but it is not easy. He referred the Wilkinsburg couple to someone who does appraisals at a discounted rate and they can be reduced next year, but some people don't even appeal they just try to make the payments so it is impossible to reach everyone. Sorry about the rant, but this issue hits close to home because my dad has made this life's work in recent years. He and I both really hate to see someone lose their home because they are taxed out of it.

_____________________________

If its brown flush it down. Here we go Steelers...

(in reply to *commander*)
Post #: 114
RE: Gambling is not the answer - 7/24/2008 10:23:31 PM   
track2514


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I just read this article and found it interesting.


Bluhm sounds alarm on Pittsburgh casino dealThursday, July 24, 2008By Tom Barnes, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
HARRISBURG -- The latest deal to save a casino in Pittsburgh faces major uncertainty by as early as July 30 if it is not approved by then by the state Gaming Control Board.
That's what Chicago billionaire Neil Bluhm today told a state Senate committee that is looking into the deal where Mr. Bluhm and other investors would take over for Don Barden, who now holds the slots license for the partially built North Side casino.
"We have a situation where the project could be in default by July 30. The bridge lenders have sent a notice of default and foreclosure. They have threatened to sell the property in foreclosure. This project could go into bankruptcy. That would mean a long delay," Mr. Bluhm said.
He added bankruptcy proceedings could drag on for months and construction costs would almost certainly rise. He didn't say exactly whether his offer of $170 million to take over the project would be withdrawn.
He said he likes the Pittsburgh project but has many others he could pursue around the country.
Sens. Jim Ferlo and Jane Orie did not like hearing of the July 30 deadline.
"You say there is a gun to Pittsburgh's head if we don't move fast," said Mr. Ferlo.
They both complained about the state Gaming Control Board, which they said "lacks credibility" because of what they said was a poor job of examining Mr. Barden's background.
Mr. Bluhm said he was just explaining financial realities caused by great turmoil in the credit markets.
Mr. Bluhm's comments came a day after Standard and Poor's rated his firm, Holdings Gaming Borrower, at "B" -- often referred to as "junk bond" level, saying the firm's fixed-charge burden for the property is high, that current economic conditions are weak and that its first-loss term loan holds a recovery rating of 6, "indicating that lenders can expect negligible (0-to-10 percent) recovery in the event of a payment default."
The ratings firm also said its assessment is tempered by the fact that the casino would face limited gaming competition, has a sizable population base from which to draw and "good demand characteristics" for the region.
Mayor Luke Ravenstahl and Allegheny county Chief Executive Dan Onorato said it is important for the Gaming Control Board to resolve the license issue quickly.
Mr. Ravenstahl said he is sticking to his guns regardless of any deadline, and regardless of who emerges as the city's lone slots casino operator.
"I don't know if I'd refer to it as being held hostage," he said. "But we do need to consider what that deadline means."
He said financing deadlines shouldn't dilute the board's obligation to hear the city's position: That all commitments made related to arena funding, casino design and neighborhood development help be maintained, and that the emerging ownership group proves that it has the money to build and operate the casino.
"Finance the deal. Keep the commitments," he said as he prepared to lead a building code sweep of Allentown. "Whoever it is that can do that the quickest, that can continue construction, is something we should take a look at."
"We don't want to just continue construction at the expense of a sub-par facility or financing that doesn't work."
Last week Mr. Bluhm's group told the mayor in a phone conversation that they would fulfill Mr. Barden's commitments. "That's wonderful in a phone conversation between myself and them, but that has to be part of the public record, that needs to be part of the public dialogue, and the Gaming Control Board needs to hear that in a public forum," Mr. Ravenstahl said today.
The mayor said he understood that a construction delay could "not necessarily jeopardize, but delay funding for the new arena, which is critically important." It also would delay the city's receipt of slots tax revenue.
The worst-case scenario -- foreclosure of the project -- is "not good, and it would further muddy what are already murky waters," Mr. Ravenstahl said. "That's something we all want to try to avoid."
Mr. Onorato agreed.
"Timing is very important here regardless of who controls the project. If it gets delayed too long, we're not going to be able to open it in May because the costs of construction are constantly rising," he said today.
"Timing is critical. I am going to be applying pressure on the board and try to get them to define a process that will give us an owner.
"Forget who gets it. This is about getting the approval process [of an owner] worked out as soon as possible. One thing is critical, however: whoever gets to control the project has to commit to completing the project on the original timetable [May 2009], and they have to deliver all the things Don Barden promised."
More details in tomorrow's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08206/899253-100.stm 

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If its brown flush it down. Here we go Steelers...

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