RE: Crossbows coming?

RE: Crossbows coming?

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RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/17/2008 1:15:37 PM

SilverKype

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1. Manufacturers have been the major pushers of legalizing xbows here.

2. Xbow hunters want to hunt the rut.

3. Xbow hunters think xbows are a bow, so they belong in archery season. By definition of the law here; they are not.

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Post #: 31

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/18/2008 12:08:57 AM

DanesDad

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So we should feel safe then?

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Post #: 32

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/18/2008 2:27:45 AM

gobyking

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If anyone chooses to use a crossbow in rifle season,they are idiots. Let them have the choice. I don't see the big deal,I hunt in 2B and haven't seen a single person with a crossbow. I hunt with a compound and don't think that the so-called pressure will be any influence on where I hunt at all. If you are driving deer with a group of crossbow hunters,isn't that like stomping a stream to push fish down to worm fishermen? It's a joke. Maybe some of you are hunting high pressure areas possibly.Lots of other states have crossbow hunting and the last time I paid attention, they aren't that accurate over 40 yards because of the weight of the bolt. This whole argument is silly and no I have never hunted with a crossbow and never will because they cost $1000.

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Post #: 33

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/18/2008 7:50:44 AM

dpms

Posts: 474
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

If anyone chooses to use a crossbow in rifle season,they are idiots. Let them have the choice. I don't see the big deal,I hunt in 2B and haven't seen a single person with a crossbow. I hunt with a compound and don't think that the so-called pressure will be any influence on where I hunt at all. If you are driving deer with a group of crossbow hunters,isn't that like stomping a stream to push fish down to worm fishermen? It's a joke. Maybe some of you are hunting high pressure areas possibly.Lots of other states have crossbow hunting and the last time I paid attention, they aren't that accurate over 40 yards because of the weight of the bolt. This whole argument is silly and no I have never hunted with a crossbow and never will because they cost $1000.

Thare are some who choose to hunt with thier compound or flintlock in rifle season. I would not call them idiots, I would call them true woodsman who enjoy the challenge of primitive weapons.

I see crossbows all the time in 2B. You are either unique in your experiences or don't get out much.

The nature of archery is supposed to be waiting patiently in an area you have scouted for deer to move naturally towards your position. I will take that over deer running from drivers past my location any day.

Crossbows are very accurate at 40 yards and beyond but thier power at that range is mediocre at best. That is one of the problems with those that do not fully understand the effectiveness of crossbows.

(in reply to gobyking)

Post #: 34

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/18/2008 8:36:55 AM

SilverKype

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DanesDad

So we should feel safe then?

Not sure what you mean Dane?

Safe like ... xbows won't happen?

I think it's inevitable in time. Decreasing hunter numbers will allow them someday. Probably soon. Not this year. I see this bill getting to the senate. Not sure what to think then. We had a Senator John Eich at our last UBP winter rendevous, he gave a speech, and said he agrees with "most" of what we stand for but not all. Bet he was refering to the xbwo issue. Just a guess. We'll see how he votes in the future.

What would archery hunting be like to add 250 K new people to the season?

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Post #: 35

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/18/2008 9:18:44 AM

dpms

Posts: 474
Joined: 8/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

What would archery hunting be like to add 250 K new people to the season?

Do not see the numbers being that high but some additional points we can discuss:

I have been thinking that the resource can withstand a higher archery harvest even significantly higher. Here is why.

We know that doe harvest is controlled by allocations.

Antlered harvest is a concern but think of this; Many worry about the added harvest of bucks during archery. This harvest is actually a shift from later in the season during rifle. The overall buck harvest should not change, just when they were harvested. There is a one buck limit for all. Shoot that buck with a crossbow in archery and you are done.

The total buck harvest is the concern not when the harvest happened.

But, from a biological standpoint. This shift could have some effects. A higher antlered harvest prior to peak breeding could affect the success rates of does being bred during thier first cycle. We have made some potential gains since AR/HR in regards to closing the breeding window a little. Do we want to compromise that with a higher antlered harvest prior to the rut?

I think that may be more of a real issue than the worry of extra buck harvest and shorter seasons. The total deer harvest should not change, just when the harvest occurs.

(in reply to SilverKype)

Post #: 36

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/18/2008 9:38:47 AM

SilverKype

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You may not see the numbers that high but that's from the "xbow" biologist in Ohio.

Doe harvest is not controlled by only allocations. Season length is a major factor.

Let's say we get 900,000 doe tags. Two days to fill these tags. If 100% of those tags are filled the first day, we're done. Day two means nothing.

If the first day harvest is 40%, that means 60% still have another day to be harvested, which will increase harvest.

It's pretty simple. You're NOT just shifting harvest to earlier in the season, your providing a subtantial increase in opportunity.

Same with buck. A hunter that only hunts Monday and the two Saturdays in rifle only has three days to hunt. Give him an xbow with him hunting six Saturday's, that gives him 9 days. Our harvest is 40%, not 100%. If it was 100%, then I'd agree. More opportunity means higher harvest. You can't increase demand (opportunity) without increasing supply(deer numbers). It's impossible for it to filter out. Something has to give.

Not to mention you're giving thousands of more hunters the opportunity to harvest mature bucks at their most vulnerable time. So much for age structure.

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Post #: 37

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/18/2008 9:55:01 AM

dpms

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Joined: 8/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Doe harvest is not controlled by only allocations. Season length is a major factor.

It's pretty simple. You're NOT just shifting harvest to earlier in the season, your providing a subtantial increase in opportunity.

Not to mention you're giving thousands of more hunters the opportunity to harvest mature bucks at their most vulnerable time. So much for age structure.

Some good points. And yes season length can effect harvest but that still can be controlled by allocations. Just cut them down as much as is needed. It will take tags away from the rifle hunters though.

And yes there would be more opportunity for the harvest of bucks but that opportunity is with a relatively short range weapon. Put a buck on a piece of ground with a rifle hunter and a hunter with a crossbow and I would lay my odds on the rifle hunter.

Not sure that the overall success rate of antlered hunters would change much. Again, overall success rate and harvest numbers.

I am just trying to see the other side's arguements. There are some valid points. If the pro-crossbow side acknowledges them it will help to streamline thier case.

As for the mature bucks, the same hunters that harvest them with thier rifle may get them with a X-Bow. The rut is essentially two weeks which is the same as our rifle season.

< Message edited by dpms -- 7/18/2008 10:19:30 AM >

(in reply to SilverKype)

Post #: 38

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/18/2008 10:16:43 AM

SilverKype

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dpms

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Doe harvest is not controlled by only allocations. Season length is a major factor.

It's pretty simple. You're NOT just shifting harvest to earlier in the season, your providing a subtantial increase in opportunity.

Not to mention you're giving thousands of more hunters the opportunity to harvest mature bucks at their most vulnerable time. So much for age structure.

Some good points. And yes season length can effect harvest but that still can be controlled by allocations. Just cut them down as much as is needed. It will take tags away from the rifle hunters though.

Right. The way to combat an increase in participants would be to decrease allocations. But then, this brings in the other side of supply and demand .. demand. As you said, many hunters would have to do without tags. fair? I don't think so. All because someone doesn't "want" to hunt with a bow and arrow?

They do have valid points but they don't got the most important ingredient .. supply. 10 years ago they did.

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Post #: 39

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/19/2008 2:37:03 AM

gobyking

Posts: 652
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dpms

quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

If anyone chooses to use a crossbow in rifle season,they are idiots. Let them have the choice. I don't see the big deal,I hunt in 2B and haven't seen a single person with a crossbow. I hunt with a compound and don't think that the so-called pressure will be any influence on where I hunt at all. If you are driving deer with a group of crossbow hunters,isn't that like stomping a stream to push fish down to worm fishermen? It's a joke. Maybe some of you are hunting high pressure areas possibly.Lots of other states have crossbow hunting and the last time I paid attention, they aren't that accurate over 40 yards because of the weight of the bolt. This whole argument is silly and no I have never hunted with a crossbow and never will because they cost $1000.

Thare are some who choose to hunt with thier compound or flintlock in rifle season. I would not call them idiots, I would call them true woodsman who enjoy the challenge of primitive weapons.

I see crossbows all the time in 2B. You are either unique in your experiences or don't get out much.

The nature of archery is supposed to be waiting patiently in an area you have scouted for deer to move naturally towards your position. I will take that over deer running from drivers past my location any day.

Crossbows are very accurate at 40 yards and beyond but thier power at that range is mediocre at best. That is one of the problems with those that do not fully understand the effectiveness of crossbows.

I guess I'm unique then.Go ahead and spend your time diatribing this,it won't make a bit of difference.This is a common discussion,not intended to question ones 'outdoor skills'.You are obviously a more superior outdoorsman than I am,please continue your podium DPMS.

How many bucks have you killed and what size or score were they?

How many years have you been hunting?

These responses will say it all.Good luck.

(in reply to dpms)

Post #: 40

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/19/2008 8:55:59 AM

dpms

Posts: 474
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

I guess I'm unique then.

You are obviously a more superior outdoorsman than I am,please continue your podium DPMS.

How many bucks have you killed and what size or score were they?

How many years have you been hunting?

These responses will say it all.Good luck.

Will discuss facts not personal prowess. You said that someone who chooses to hunt with a primitive weapon in rifle is an idiot. I know many and they are some of the best woodsman I know.

I also know many that choose to shoot does for meat and largely ignore antlered deer and they are also some of the best woodsman I know. I also know hikers and campers whoose knowledge of the outdoors is impressive.

Never claimed to be superior, just pointing out the the facts that you have overlooked.

I hope that response lives up to your expectations.

< Message edited by dpms -- 7/19/2008 8:57:09 AM >

(in reply to gobyking)

Post #: 41

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/20/2008 11:20:22 AM

Moses Guthrie

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I hunt 2B almost everyday in Archery season and the introduction of Crossbows defintely increased the numbers of hunters in the first season they were legal, but it seams every year after that the number of crossbow hunters has decreased, maybe the guys who think big bucks comeout from behind every tree in the rut learned it is a little more difficult then they thought and gave it up. It seems now that the guys that are using crossbows now are the same guys that hunted archery with compounds before crossbows were legal and feel more comfortable with a crossbow. If people are making more ethical shots with a crossbow I do not have a problem with them.

(in reply to dpms)

Post #: 42

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/20/2008 1:01:24 PM

MuskyMastr

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Another critical point to ponder here and I do not know the answer without, going to look it up...(hold on)....ok just checked. The saftey zone reduction for archery hunters also applies to crossbows, so maybe in urban areas with population issues, it is a good thing.

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Post #: 43

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/21/2008 1:24:46 PM

work2much

Posts: 37
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Compound hunters need to keep perspective in their reaction to crossbows. Its easy to attack crossbows and their accuracy, but the same arguments apply to compounds and their status as "primative weapons". There was a time when archery involved a long bow, cedar shaft and a flint broadhead. Maybe we should limit archery hunting during the rut to this setup to prevent excessive harvest? The PGC could set a second week long archery modern bow season in early October for compounds, mechanical realeases, truglo sites, overdraws, mechanical broadheads, carbon arrows, etc.

The compound hunters wanting to maintain the status quo are the same guys who get their drink then piss in the spring. You are currently blessed with a very lond season and you should be careful about arguments involving the archery season depleting the population with the addition of crossbows as the same argument can be made for today's compound. Crossbows have not decimated the herd in other states (or 2B for that matter) and they are a useful tool in urban areas. They improve accuracy for casual hunters, but they are still not sufficiently accurate beyond 35 yards. Yes you can shoot precise groups at somewhat longer distances, but even small miscalculations in range will throw off the accuracy. Precision without accuracy does little to increase a hunters odds. This combined with rapid energy loss from bolts minimizes the threat of casual hunters decimating the herd with 60 yard archery shots if crossbows were legalized.

(in reply to MuskyMastr)

Post #: 44

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 12:57:45 AM

gobyking

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I stand behind my statement that a hunter would be an idiot to hunt in a season with an inferior weapon(depending on if that hunter could AFFORD that weapon). If I were to hunt in rifle season with a bow, well you know the rest. Does that make me a superior woodsman if I kill a deer with my bow? No.

I don't have a problem with the crossbow hunters, neither do many other states. You guys just want to hold onto the idea of a "primitive weapon" when most compounds nowadays are just as technologically advanced as the crossbow.

As for the idea that the crossbows will cause a drop in bucks taken in rifle season, how do you know? I have never hunted with a crossbow but don't see the issue here. I am in my local woods a lot,maybe I'm sheltered for now not seeing any crossbow hunters, but don't see the major impact you guys are predicting. Maybe it will impact the big woods, I don't hunt there though. Also, you have to count the horns now, didn't have to do it in years past.

If I was allowed by the state to hunt with a muzzleloader in archery season(October,the best time of the year) I would buy one.

< Message edited by gobyking -- 7/28/2008 1:18:38 AM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 12:04:09 PM

SilverKype

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I'd love to hear WHY I'm an idiot because I choose to take my bow during rifle or flintlock.

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Post #: 46

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 12:20:17 PM

Carpet Bagger

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From: Greenville, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

I stand behind my statement that a hunter would be an idiot to hunt in a season with an inferior weapon(depending on if that hunter could AFFORD that weapon). If I were to hunt in rifle season with a bow, well you know the rest. Does that make me a superior woodsman if I kill a deer with my bow? No.

I don't have a problem with the crossbow hunters, neither do many other states. You guys just want to hold onto the idea of a "primitive weapon" when most compounds nowadays are just as technologically advanced as the crossbow.

As for the idea that the crossbows will cause a drop in bucks taken in rifle season, how do you know? I have never hunted with a crossbow but don't see the issue here. I am in my local woods a lot,maybe I'm sheltered for now not seeing any crossbow hunters, but don't see the major impact you guys are predicting. Maybe it will impact the big woods, I don't hunt there though. Also, you have to count the horns now, didn't have to do it in years past.

If I was allowed by the state to hunt with a muzzleloader in archery season(October,the best time of the year) I would buy one.

A kill is a kill whether its with a bow, gun, rock, or sharp stick....

I just think having a deer come in range of a bow during rifle season would require more scouting and woodsmanship...If you want to take em with a bow...good...30yrds with a rifle should be automatic...

As far as inferior weapons...does that mean during rifle season i should hunt with a 50caliber over a 243? Your splitting hairs here...lol If a guy wants to down a deer with a bow and wants to put in the time to get one...i support his cause and his effort...Hopefully the sound of my .270 going off during rifle seaons will scare one into range for him so he can feel his hunt was as fullfilling as mine.

Some guys just like to be alot more primative with their hunts...doesnt mean their out there with sharpened sticks. A compound bow is a very advanced weapon very capable of downing a deer, or any animal for that matter. A skilled archer can down a deer as easy as any hungover nucklehead with a 30-06.

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Post #: 47

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 12:25:46 PM

dpms

Posts: 474
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

I stand behind my statement that a hunter would be an idiot to hunt in a season with an inferior weapon(depending on if that hunter could AFFORD that weapon).

Pitiful, especially since those that choose to do this are some of the best woodsman around. You could learn alot from some of them.

(in reply to gobyking)

Post #: 48

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 12:46:16 PM

SilverKype

Posts: 3657
Joined: 1/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

quote:

ORIGINAL: dpms

quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

If anyone chooses to use a crossbow in rifle season,they are idiots. Let them have the choice. I don't see the big deal,I hunt in 2B and haven't seen a single person with a crossbow. I hunt with a compound and don't think that the so-called pressure will be any influence on where I hunt at all. If you are driving deer with a group of crossbow hunters,isn't that like stomping a stream to push fish down to worm fishermen? It's a joke. Maybe some of you are hunting high pressure areas possibly.Lots of other states have crossbow hunting and the last time I paid attention, they aren't that accurate over 40 yards because of the weight of the bolt. This whole argument is silly and no I have never hunted with a crossbow and never will because they cost $1000.

Thare are some who choose to hunt with thier compound or flintlock in rifle season. I would not call them idiots, I would call them true woodsman who enjoy the challenge of primitive weapons.

I see crossbows all the time in 2B. You are either unique in your experiences or don't get out much.

The nature of archery is supposed to be waiting patiently in an area you have scouted for deer to move naturally towards your position. I will take that over deer running from drivers past my location any day.

Crossbows are very accurate at 40 yards and beyond but thier power at that range is mediocre at best. That is one of the problems with those that do not fully understand the effectiveness of crossbows.

How many bucks have you killed and what size or score were they?

How many years have you been hunting?

These responses will say it all.Good luck.

Let's say hunter 1 hunts public land in a run down mature forest, kills a small buck (best in these areas) and hunter 2 hunts food plots on a private lease where no buck can be shot until they are 3.5 year old.

Because hunter 2 kills bigger scorable bucks, does that make him the superior hunter?

You've got to be an idiot to think like that.

_____________________________

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Post #: 49

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 1:41:06 PM

gobyking

Posts: 652
Status: offline

Those questions were to see if he would start bragging about how many bucks he's killed,size,etc.,etc. to justify some sort of "woodsman" status. He didn't bite. I disagree with someone who hunts with a bow in rifle season,but all the luck to him/her if they choose to. I though the idea was to get a deer, not make it difficult and darn near impossible.

(in reply to SilverKype)

Post #: 50

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 1:48:40 PM

griffon

Posts: 1241
Joined: 10/30/2003
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I generally only hunt with my bow, even during the rifle season. It opens up a ton of property to me that gun hunters will never have access to.

(in reply to gobyking)

Post #: 51

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 1:52:43 PM

gobyking

Posts: 652
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That is an excellent point. I stand corrected, again.

(in reply to griffon)

Post #: 52

RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/28/2008 2:17:59 PM

dpms

Posts: 474
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: gobyking

I disagree with someone who hunts with a bow in rifle season,but all the luck to him/her if they choose to. I though the idea was to get a deer, not make it difficult and darn near impossible.

Would you believe that for some of us, the hunt is more fun than the kill?

(in reply to gobyking)

Post #: 53

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