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Crossbows coming? - 7/11/2008 12:08:27 PM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online 		Did you all hear at the last PGC meeting held recently that the BOC has asked the PGC staff to prepare and present some information on crossbows and impacts that they might or might not have to our archery season as it is set now.

This info is to be presented at the next meeting in October in Washington, PA.  I plan on going, anyone else?

Crossbows have been legal in archery in the SRA's for about 4-5 years now.  I have been pressing some that I know for some info on impact studies, success rates or new recruitment of archers.  A source within has told me that the PGC has not done any studies as of yet and had no plans too because of limited funds.  That will change now since this info was asked for by the board.

It was this person's feeling that the deer team did not feel crossbows would have much of an impact statewide if legalized for general archery.

There is alot of info out there from other states but it will be very interesting to see what is presented about Pa. in October and how it may effect our archery season.
Post #: 1
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/11/2008 5:53:15 PM   
thedrake

 

Posts: 1503
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Hollidaysburg, PA
Status: offline 		My thought on what will happen if crossguns are intoduced into archery season, is that many more deer will be killed. Adding crossguns into archery season will not bring more archers to hunting, it will bring more leadslingers into the woods with a crossbow during archery season.

Crossbows shoot flatter, you dont have to hold the string back,  and they can be rested on a rest so you have a steady shot. They require no more skill than a rifle does. In my opinion they resemble a rifle more than a bow.

I recently had the oppurtunity to shoot a friends crossbow. At 50 yards off of a rest, I was shooting 3" groups consistantly. The average distance I shoot deer in rifle season is barely longer than that.

< Message edited by thedrake -- 7/11/2008 5:57:10 PM >

(in reply to dpms)
Post #: 2
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/11/2008 6:46:52 PM   
Maga2120

 

Posts: 690
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline 		i would be pretty mad if they let people use crossbows in archery season unless you have health issuses or something along that line. it is like shooting a gun, no skill or anything.  They are just trying to get more people to start hunting  by throwing up new "Cool" Weapons

(in reply to thedrake)
Post #: 3
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/11/2008 8:16:45 PM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrake

Adding crossguns into archery season will not bring more archers to hunting, it will bring more leadslingers into the woods with a crossbow during archery season.

At 50 yards off of a rest, I was shooting 3" groups consistantly.


I hunt the SRA's alot where crossbows are already legal in archery and I can tell you that thier legalization did bring many more hunters to the woods.  It has affected the way I have to hunt.  I also have witnessed alot of deer drives through the small woodlots and most all carry crossbows.  It has brought out a differnet kind of hunter than what we are generally used to in archery.

Also, on the 50 yard thing.  They are deadly accurate with little to no practice.  Because of this and a lack of knowledge on the true limitations of crossbows, I hear about many shots taken at 50, 60, 70 yards.  The accuracy is there but the penetration is not. 

We will see and I am very interested in the PGC's findings when they report it.

(in reply to thedrake)
Post #: 4
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/11/2008 8:20:38 PM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online 		The bottom line will be whether the resource can withstand the addition of crossbows. 

We need to see some studies from the SRA's on new archer recruitment, success rates and numbers of archers that choose crossbows.  Hopefully this will be presented.

The biggest obstacle, as I understand it, is the UBP who have quite a bit of influence within the PGC and are well represented and organized.  They are adamently against the legalization and have several statements on thier website.

(in reply to dpms)
Post #: 5
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/12/2008 11:16:42 PM   
DanesDad

 

Posts: 1981
Joined: 3/21/2005
Status: offline 		As a compound bow archer, I would object to crossbows being used outside SRAs or by anyone other than the handicapped and maybe senior hunters.  This is more selfish than anything else.  I dont want to share the woods that I enjoy in solitude now.  I imagine the resource could take it and I'm sure the PGC wouldn't mind selling more archery stamps.  But, I believe it takes a lot less skill to shoot a deer with a crossbow than with a recurve or compound and I kind of resent the guy who buys one on friday and is hunting on saturday, after I've spent months practicing my compound.  I probably wouldn't object if they were given a specific season (like inline muzzleloaders), but for them to be legal all of archery season is...wrong.

(in reply to dpms)
Post #: 6
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/12/2008 11:30:41 PM   
CATMAN610

 

Posts: 275
Status: offline 		Lets face it,,at some point in time all arms will be legal in most of the seasons, not that I agree,,I don't.
I think there is way too many different seasons and opportunity as it is. How many of you think pretty soon inline muzzels will be allowed after Christmas?

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Post #: 7
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/12/2008 11:38:00 PM   
DanesDad

 

Posts: 1981
Joined: 3/21/2005
Status: offline 		I wouldn't like to see inlines after xmas for the same reason I dont want crossbows leagal in archery.

(in reply to CATMAN610)
Post #: 8
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/13/2008 2:13:00 PM   
CATMAN610

 

Posts: 275
Status: offline 		Right

(in reply to DanesDad)
Post #: 9
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 8:04:59 AM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3811
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: online 		If you are a bowhunter, hunt the last two weeks, and want to in the future, you should send some typed and signed letters to you reps and senators.   The last two weeks in archery is in serious jeopardy.

_____________________________

It's hard to beat a Ross.

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Post #: 10
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 8:39:34 AM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

The last two weeks in archery is in serious jeopardy.


That is my concern as well.  I know that in the SRA's participation has increased during archery by those that would never archery hunt with conventional gear.

That is why this study by PGC staff will be very interesting.  I am sure the UBP will be well represented at the October meeting and I look for some push from sportmen that want legalization statewide.  This meeting will take place in the SRA's backyard and I anticipate several pro-crossbow speakers there.

An interesting note is at the last meeting, the only pro-crossbow speaker was a representative from the crossbow industry.  In-fact one Commissioner made the statement that he feels the push to legalize statewide is coming from the crossbow manufacturers that stand to make alot of money in sales.

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 11
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 8:41:32 AM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

The last two weeks in archery is in serious jeopardy.


Another thing the the pro-crossbow side likes to point out is no state has ever had it's archery season shortened as a result of crossbows being legalized. 

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 12
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 9:06:24 AM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3811
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: online 		I'm quite burnt out on this subject D, from huntingpa to writing to reps/senators.   Infact, a few reps have taken their names off this bill.  A lot oppose it.  Some of them didn't even know what a crossbow was (), yet signed it because Haluska persuaded them that crossbows with get more children involved.   I got some pics of little girl scouts drawing compounds for him.    I haven't determined if he'd like to see them yet, or how to present them without stating that this is a spineless bill.  Think I'll wait until the September get together.  The only thing that needs to be said about overharvest/shortened seasons is the laws of supply and demand when stating whether PA can handle a crossbow in a six week season.

(in reply to dpms)
Post #: 13
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 9:18:27 AM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

I'm quite burnt out on this subject D, from huntingpa to writing to reps/senators.   Infact, a few reps have taken their names off this bill.  A lot oppose it. 


You are referring to the bill that changes the definition of a bow right?  If passed this bill would essentially legalize crossbows for all seasons that conventional archery gear is legal for.  And end around move if I ever saw one.

Pa. has a large hunter pool to begin with.  The impact to the resource concern is a valid one.  If crossbows recruit 50,000 0r 75,000 new archers the impact could be enough to cause concern.

As for antlerless harvest, that could be controlled through allocations.  The antlered harvest is the concern of most.

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 14
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 9:27:06 AM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3811
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: online 		Yes.  While antlerless harvest can be controlled by allocations, increased buck harvest may throw one of the major goals of the management plan out; a balanced buck:doe ratio.

_____________________________

It's hard to beat a Ross.

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Post #: 15
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 10:46:17 AM   
thedrake

 

Posts: 1503
Joined: 11/14/2005
From: Hollidaysburg, PA
Status: offline 		My thought is that if someone wants to hunt in archery season and are not disabled, they are not being excluded. They can buy a bow for the same price as a crossgun, and therefore already have the oppurtunity to hunt archery season.

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 16
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 1:35:15 PM   
S-10

 

Posts: 1532
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		This may give you a bit of info on what could happen if inacted-----2006/2007 Ohio deer season, Archery hunters took 29% of all deer killed by all means. Bow hunters took 29,423------Crossbow hunters took 38,489. No info on how many hunters in each catagory. My own observations would indicate slightly more bow hunters.

(in reply to thedrake)
Post #: 17
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 4:28:21 PM   
CATMAN610

 

Posts: 275
Status: offline 		Whats going on with the last 2 weeks,,,i don't understand?

(in reply to S-10)
Post #: 18
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 8:17:43 PM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: CATMAN610

Whats going on with the last 2 weeks,,,i don't understand?


One of the concerns by many with the legalization of crossbows staewide during general archery season is the impact to the resource.  IE: increased harvest.  Doe harvest can be controlled by allocations but antlered harvest can not. 

A large number of bucks fall during the last two weeks of archery.  Many more would fall if crossbows were legalized according to some.  If the resource can not withstand the added harvest of antlered deer, an option is to shorten the season.  Which could be the last two weeks.

(in reply to CATMAN610)
Post #: 19
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/14/2008 9:02:31 PM   
CATMAN610

 

Posts: 275
Status: offline 		Oh I see,,,,ya your right about that. Its basicly a single shot gun.

(in reply to dpms)
Post #: 20
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/15/2008 7:48:49 AM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3811
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: online 		Archers have too long to hunt is brought up all the time in Harrisburg.  Archers kill too many bucks.   (archer's harvest about a quarter of the deer annually btw..)   The UBP is on the front lines every meeting to protect these two weeks.   They are the only reason we got it, and the only reason we still have it.

_____________________________

It's hard to beat a Ross.

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Post #: 21
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/15/2008 7:58:56 AM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

The UBP is on the front lines every meeting to protect these two weeks.   They are the only reason we got it, and the only reason we still have it.


To thier credit they are very well organized and represented during every BOC meeting.  They do have significant influence within the current board as it is now.

If sporstmen and women on the pro-crossbow side became organized and spoke at the meetings, things could be very different. 

I do hear of a push from crossbow supporters to show in numbers at the fall meeting because of its location.  Time will tell as talk is cheap.

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 22
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/15/2008 10:28:15 AM   
MuskyMastr


Posts: 1902
Joined: 6/30/2005
From: 20' up a 100 year old white oak
Status: offline 		Not that I agree with the number of doe permits handed out each year, and I don't want to hunt with a crossbow.  But it makes good sense (biologically) to get the does that are going to be harvested out of the herd in october rather than december.  I see the PGC giving this serious consideration in the near future.
It is a shame that what started as a "primitive weapons" season has evolved to this, but such is PA Hunting.

Now if they decided to bring them in and started with a 1 week season for crossbows, that was concurrent with the existing archery season, I think I could live with that.

_____________________________

I love the smell of a warm gut pile in the morning.

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Post #: 23
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/15/2008 11:04:59 AM   
Brookie1

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: online 		Area 2B has crossbow hunting already and I haven't seen many
people using them.

(in reply to MuskyMastr)
Post #: 24
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/15/2008 11:17:16 AM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3811
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: online 		Regardless, I see it happening eventually, indefinitely. 

But it shouldn't happen with a vote from legislators when some don't even know what a crossbow is.   Politics shouldn't override science.  I think it needs to be proven our deer numbers can handle it (which I don't think they can now), ratio's remain balanced, and no season should be altered because of it.  Something has to change..  more deer, less hunters, shorter seasons, etc...

Biologist Mike Tonkovich of Ohio states .. every 400,000 rifle only hunters in a state, will add 160,000 crossbow hunters.  With our 630,000 rifle only hunters, that 252,000 additional hunters in the woods for archery.    At a .4 harvest rate (our average per year), that's 100,800 additional deer harvested annually.   In Ohio, the resource can handle that, because their supply of deer is booming and they have had record harvests the past few years.  We, on the other hand, have had the lowest in decades. 

I happen to think my area is managed perfectly.  Numbers, ratio's, age structure, etc...   although there are lots of no deer guys.   Adding crossbows may put a new definition to "deer wars."


I encourage each of you to write to your reps and legislators.   All of my personal opinions of xbows aside, the introduction of new hunters is great, but only if we got the deer to do it.  We were blessed with a windy, rainy, foggy first day of rifle last year.  Dump 6 inches of snow for the first day this year ... well, yikes!



Now if they decided to bring them in and started with a 1 week season for crossbows, that was concurrent with the existing archery season, I think I could live with that.

Funny thing is MM, xbows can be used in the two week inline season statewide, just not for antlered deer.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong. 


_____________________________

It's hard to beat a Ross.

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Post #: 25
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/15/2008 4:02:00 PM   
DanesDad

 

Posts: 1981
Joined: 3/21/2005
Status: offline 		Lets not forget that the PGC stands to gain some cash thru increased license sales that would reult from X-bow legalization.

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 26
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/15/2008 4:30:22 PM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: DanesDad

Lets not forget that the PGC stands to gain some cash thru increased license sales that would reult from X-bow legalization.


Yep, probably close to $1,000,000 extra. 

(in reply to DanesDad)
Post #: 27
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/16/2008 7:37:27 PM   
MuskyMastr


Posts: 1902
Joined: 6/30/2005
From: 20' up a 100 year old white oak
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Funny thing is MM, xbows can be used in the two week inline season statewide, just not for antlered deer.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong. 



I think you are correct, they can also be used during rifle season,  my only correction is that inline season is only 1 week.

_____________________________

I love the smell of a warm gut pile in the morning.

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Post #: 28
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/16/2008 8:40:30 PM   
dpms

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: online 		You can also use a crossbow during the late flintlock season for buck or doe statewide as long you have a muzzleloader stamp and the appropriate tags left.

(in reply to MuskyMastr)
Post #: 29
RE: Crossbows coming? - 7/17/2008 1:01:28 AM   
DanesDad

 

Posts: 1981
Joined: 3/21/2005
Status: offline 		If all that is true, why do we need any more "seasons" for them?  Could it be that they aren't as easy or effective as inline muzzleloaders?

(in reply to dpms)
Post #: 30
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