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Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 9:40:56 PM   
spoonchucker


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updated 4:34 p.m. ET, Thurs., July. 10, 2008

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WASHINGTON - It's not just the American dollar that's losing value. A government agency has decided that an American life isn't worth what it used to be.
The "value of a statistical life" is $6.9 million in today's dollars, the Environmental Protection Agency reckoned in May — a drop of nearly $1 million from just five years ago.
The Associated Press discovered the change after a review of cost-benefit analyses over more than a dozen years.

Story continues below ↓



Though it may seem like a harmless bureaucratic recalculation, the devaluation has real consequences.
When drawing up regulations, government agencies put a value on human life and then weigh the costs versus the lifesaving benefits of a proposed rule. The less a life is worth to the government, the less the need for a regulation, such as tighter restrictions on pollution.
Consider, for example, a hypothetical regulation that costs $18 billion to enforce but will prevent 2,500 deaths. At $7.8 million per person (the old figure), the lifesaving benefits outweigh the costs. But at $6.9 million per person, the rule costs more than the lives it saves, so it may not be adopted.

Some environmentalists accuse the Bush administration of changing the value to avoid tougher rules — a charge the EPA denies.
"It appears that they're cooking the books in regards to the value of life," said S. William Becker, executive director of the National Association of Clean Air Agencies, which represents state and local air pollution regulators. "Those decisions are literally a matter of life and death."
Dan Esty, a senior EPA policy official in the first Bush administration and now director of the Yale Center for Environmental Law and Policy, said that "it's hard to imagine that it has other than a political motivation."

How figure is reachedThe the EPA figure is not based on people's earning capacity, or their potential contributions to society, or how much they are loved and needed by their friends and family — some of the factors used in insurance claims and wrongful-death lawsuits.
Instead, economists calculate the value based on what people are willing to pay to avoid certain risks, and on how much extra employers pay their workers to take on additional risks. Most of the data is drawn from payroll statistics; some comes from opinion surveys. According to the EPA, people shouldn't think of the number as a price tag on a life.
The EPA made the changes in two steps. First, in 2004, the agency cut the estimated value of a life by 8 percent. Then, in a rule governing train and boat air pollution this May, the agency took away the normal adjustment for one year's inflation. Between the two changes, the value of a life fell 11 percent, based on today's dollar.








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EPA officials say the adjustment was not significant and was based on better economic studies. The reduction reflects consumer preferences, said Al McGartland, director of EPA's office of policy, economics and innovation.
"It's our best estimate of what consumers are willing to pay to reduce similar risks to their own lives," McGartland said.





Economist at oddsBut the EPA's cut "doesn't make sense," said Vanderbilt University economist Kip Viscusi. The EPA partly based its reduction on his work. "As people become more affluent, the value of statistical lives go up as well. It has to." Viscusi also said no study has shown that Americans are less willing to pay to reduce risks.
At the same time that the EPA was trimming the value of life, the Department of Transportation twice raised its life value figure. But its number is still lower than the EPA's.

From 1996 to 2003, the EPA kept the value of a statistical life generally around $7.8 million to $7.96 million in current dollars, according to reports analyzed by The AP. In 2004, for a major air pollution rule, the agency lowered the value to $7.15 million in current dollars.

Story continues below ↓






Just how the EPA came up with that figure is complicated and involves two dueling analyses.
Viscusi wrote one of those big studies, coming up with a value of $8.8 million in current dollars. The other study put the number between $2 million and $3.3 million. The co-author of that study, Laura Taylor of North Carolina State University, said her figure was lower because it emphasized differences in pay for various risky jobs, not just risky industries as a whole.
Advisor: 'Numerology,' not scienceThe EPA took portions of each study and essentially split the difference — a decision two of the agency's advisory boards faulted or questioned.
"This sort of number-crunching is basically numerology," said Granger Morgan, chairman of EPA's Science Advisory Board and an engineering and public policy professor at Carnegie Mellon University. "This is not a scientific issue."
Other, similar calculations by the Bush administration have proved politically explosive. In 2002, the EPA decided the value of elderly people was 38 percent less than that of people under 70. After the move became public, the agency reversed itself.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 9:51:52 PM   
S-10

 

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So one study puts it at 8 million and another puts it at 2 million and the number used is 6.9 million. And the point your trying to make is_______?

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 9:57:58 PM   
ROCKHARD


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not quite sure i understand that ,but seems to me alot of backtalk by govt agencies,,and ENVIROMENTALISTS,(who think their word is gold),,hell anymore if you like green grass ,your considered a enviro.,,

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 10:00:29 PM   
spoonchucker


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"And the point your trying to make is_______? "

That the Bush EPA places a continuing lower value on your life, and mine. In other words they are willing to pay ( or have others pay ) LESS to protect it.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 10:09:29 PM   
S-10

 

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I would first have to know how it got over 8 million before getting concerned about it going to 6.9 million. It's just a number that is based on a lot of possibilities and speculation. I'll still sleep soundly tonight. Course I'll have my gun handy.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 10:23:15 PM   
ROCKHARD


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how do they base human life according to enviroment,, seems like another push for more regulation,, never ends..

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 10:27:29 PM   
spoonchucker


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"how do they base human life according to enviroment"


If you READ the article it explains how.

"seems like another push for more regulation'"

Again if you READ the article. Lowering the value, is a way to AVOID regulation.



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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 10:33:26 PM   
ROCKHARD


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thats the point spoon,if life is worth 10 mill., hell we would be regulated out of existance

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Post #: 8
RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 10:50:53 PM   
spoonchucker


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Ask you your wife, if your life is worth less today, than it was 7 years ago.

Mine would probabley say yes, but that's a whole other story.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 10:54:48 PM   
spoonchucker


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Rock,

The idea behind lowering the value ( in this case ), is to keep air quality standards lower. I LIKE breathing, even if I don't do it well.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 10:56:14 PM   
ROCKHARD


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we shouldnt have to put the value of our life in dollars to push for more govt reg.,, we are all worth more than any figure they put on us

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/10/2008 11:10:13 PM   
Rapscallion

 

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Well I guess you guys have no objection then as to how much Bush is spending on the war to keep our lives more valuable.

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Post #: 12
RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 9:17:41 AM   
Bughawk


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To place a monetary value on human life is repugnant to me, but I realize that when dealing with risk analysis and cost benefit ratios, some value has to be assigned.  In reality, when we only look at numbers and do not weigh the intangibles such as quality of life, the intrinsic value of a human life, the cost of neglect and miss use of resources and the environment today and what that will mean to the future, we end up reducing our human experience to a number.  That form of thinking is exactly how we end up with over 100,000 troops in Iraq and tens of thousands of people dead, people loosing their homes due to predatory loans, jobs being sent over seas to save a buck, speculators running the price of oil up, etc... 

In the eyes of the govt. and big business we are nothing more than a statistic, a number on a page.  America has become a country of migratory economic units that move at the whim of the corporations.  Families are spilt apart, communities’ devastated, local economies destroyed all for the sake of keeping the numbers at some arbitrary level that a few people decide is important.

The bottom line is THE BOTTOM LINE.  It is a sad day in America or anywhere for that matter when an individual human life means nothing more than some abstract figure on someone's balance sheet. 



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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 9:31:07 AM   
ROCKHARD


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bug ,that was a good outlook on the matter,,why does it take a monatary value on life to push an agenda,,, i dont think anyone wants to destroy the enviroment, but thru govt intervention we are not going to solve nothing,,,let the market come up with enviro friendly solutions on their own,that is what made this nation great,not govt,,, when green is here and available to the masses,i feel all will take on the new concept,,but you cant if it isnt there to grasp

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 10:54:31 AM   
spoonchucker


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"let the market come up with enviro friendly solutions"

Rock, are you THAT naive, or delusional. Many, even most environmental solutions carry a cost, which the "market" will avoid like the plaque. In fact they spend billions trying to avoid them.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 11:08:18 AM   
ROCKHARD


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no spoon,, its the forced upon policies of govt they avoid,,, govt is ,and has been trying to increase there power over the people for decades, at whatever costs to the nation,, sometimes these problems are created by govt to dumb down the american public,, the more we need ,the easier for govt to throw their weight around,, since this nation was founded there were problems, and 99% were taken care of by the people ,not the govt,,, its like this spoon,, you want to take more from me,but then you want me to help out in a crisis,, (dont mean YOU IN GENERAL),but talking about govt,,tax the hell out of me ,then you still want my help to solve your problems,,thats most likely the outlook from these corp..,,, the more i keep,the more i will throw into the kettle, the more you take ,the less i am willing to put in the kettle

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 11:16:44 AM   
spoonchucker


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Rock,

The company I retired from has a paint, and anodize line. I guarantee you, that were it not for "forced upon policies of the government" the waste water would have been run straight down the drain UN-treated. And the solid waste, dumped in the nearest vacant lot they could lease.

Damn near every regulation, has been the result of business NOT doing the right thing of their own accord.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 11:44:01 AM   
Carpet Bagger

 

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Since bush took office i forgot how to read, write, and do math....

Everyone is scared of a democrat taking office and having larger govenment...Bush wants to wiretap you and take away constitutional rights of the people and all the idiots look the other way....His oil buddies on Texas are loading thier wallets on their barrels of oil that cost about $30 before he took office...Now they are over $130....Supply and demand my ass.  Every guy we put in there looks out for himself and those who helped buy him into office...The people of this country are secondary to the government....Its their wallets and their buddies wallets that come first....We went to war over this with England once...I think in time the people of this country will go to war with our government as well.  REVOLUTION Is what founded our country and our way of life...If we continue down this road for say another 10 years the people of this country will have no choice but to rebel.

They dont care that you want to go walleye fishing...they dont care that you want to go deer hunting...They dont care what the cost of food is...Or what a gallon of gas costs you....Just shut up and let us govern you and say what you can and cant do.....

Obama or McCain is not the answer...The people of this country need to put the government and all the slime balls of the world back in check.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 12:00:13 PM   
Bughawk


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Spoon I tend to agree with you with the one exception when it is cost effective for the company to do the right thing.  Business is all about making money.  It is that simple.  Maximize profits and minimize costs.  What I think we too often miss and hopefully the next generation of business people will grasp is there is more to the bottom line than monetary profit and loss.  The main problem I see with business is they are very short term oriented and look for the fastest and easiest solution, which often is the most damaging to the environment and economy. 

What we need are people of vision who can see past the next quarters earnings out to 5, 10, 20 years and start to create industries that are sustainable and are not just out for the quick buck. 

If we want to leave to our children a world that is better than what we received from our parents and grand parents, we need to start taking the long view and start putting into our profit and loss calculations things like the value of clean water, clean air, sustainable and renewable energy resources and stop all of this crazy chasing after money only.  I will say that the eco nuts are just as bad because they have no sense of economics.

We need a balanced, ecologically sound, sustainable and more importantly stable economic plan that leads to development and at the same time conservation of resources.  This not a pipe dream, it can be a reality.  The difficult thing is to find someone with vision to lead us and more importantly help us develop a common understanding and set of goals.  Right now our leaders tend to spend more time building "their" base of support and not worrying about the fact that ALL AMERICANS should be their concern.  When your focus narrows, so do the solutions to the problems.

In the final analysis, Amercia needs to wake up to the fact WE THE PEOPLE means ALL of the people, not just those with special interests or think and believe as we do.  America is for those who fly the flag as well as those who choose not to.  It is for veterans who have fought in wars and those who protested against the wars.  It is for the wealthy and the poor.  America and the American dream is not just what any one of us thinks it is, it is what WE all believe it is and will be.


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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 12:08:45 PM   
rapala11

 

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aw bug, that's great.  would love to crack a labatts with you some day.  better watch it though, as you are about to be classified as one of those educated, left wing trouble makers.  but if you do, remember that you are in good company.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 12:17:16 PM   
rapala11

 

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Damn near every regulation, has been the result of business NOT doing the right thing of their own accord.


in almost all cases, this is 100% correct.  even after companies were made aware of the harm they were doing or had done to the environment, they waited until forced by law to do something.  it shouldn't take but an act of conscience and awareness to begin to fix a problem was it made visible.

we become part of this problem if we chose to ignore, i.e.: to deny the existence of global warming or what fossil fuel burning can do to the world is fertilizing the problem.  we cannot change overnight but we can press, we can demand that alternatives be investigated and developed.  as carpetbagger said, all that money wasted on that iraq war......what would have happened if we had gone around left end of the car and oil companies and used that money to find clean energy sources?

remember the old adage?  if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. 

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 7:59:07 PM   
ROCKHARD


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spoon ,there is regulations in place ,has been for a few decades,, they are doing just fine,,you will always find the outcast of the lot,but then you penalize them to the fullest extent,, not taxing them ,that does nothing but go to wash.to throw away,,, how many regs.,do we need,, we talk about a bad economy,lost jobs, cause of it, not greed,but being regulated out of business,,look at the steel industry, lost for at least 2 decades now,the ones still going, struggle every year to make a profit,but they did what the regs demanded from them,now lets throw more on a industry that is struggling to survive,no wonder companies leave this nation, 20 yrs ago the auto industry,forced emmission standards,they did the right thing,now lets do it again,to a industry barely holding on,,many areas of the business world do the right thing,why keep punishing them more,,, alternative fuels,when we have one lets embrace it,,sounds like most of you would like the oil industry to just dry up,non exist,, wonder who would be next on the hit list if oil said ok ,,we done drilling ,no more oil for market,, well we can sit home for 20 yrs or so wait for alternative fuels

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Post #: 22
RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 9:01:28 PM   
Bughawk


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rapala11 a Labatts is one of those liberal beers, right???  I would love to share one and have a talk.  I am currently working on loosing some weight, so I am trying to keep the beer to a minimum.

I don't think regulations are a bad idea if they protect the environment, but at the same time we should help the industry to meet those requirements if we as a society see that they are important.  I don't mind tax breaks to industry that are targeted to deal with things like cutting back on pollution.  What I have a problem with is giving tax breaks to companies where the top management is bleeding the company dry by demanding salaries that are a 100 times that of the average employee. 

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 9:07:35 PM   
ROCKHARD


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thats what i am saying bug,,we have regs in place,sure there are those that skimp past them ,them are the ones to penalize,,but then you do have the corp. that do the right thing,put in whatever measures needed to meet standards, cant hit them again bacause of a few not following the regs in place,,,..

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Post #: 24
RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 9:17:12 PM   
rapala11

 

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bug, i am down to one or two a year now, not sure why?  had an uncle who told me i was a disgrace to the irish race.  still love the smell and the taste.....

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Post #: 25
RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/11/2008 9:21:14 PM   
ROCKHARD


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got you beat rap,, not one in over a year due to liver problems,,doc says no no ,,, labatt and moosehead ,great beers,damn ,wish i had one

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Post #: 26
RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/13/2008 10:10:50 AM   
Indian Summer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carpet Bagger

Since bush took office i forgot how to read, write, and do math....

Everyone is scared of a democrat taking office and having larger govenment...Bush wants to wiretap you and take away constitutional rights of the people and all the idiots look the other way....His oil buddies on Texas are loading thier wallets on their barrels of oil that cost about $30 before he took office...Now they are over $130....Supply and demand my ass.  Every guy we put in there looks out for himself and those who helped buy him into office...The people of this country are secondary to the government....Its their wallets and their buddies wallets that come first....We went to war over this with England once...I think in time the people of this country will go to war with our government as well.  REVOLUTION Is what founded our country and our way of life...If we continue down this road for say another 10 years the people of this country will have no choice but to rebel.

They dont care that you want to go walleye fishing...they dont care that you want to go deer hunting...They dont care what the cost of food is...Or what a gallon of gas costs you....Just shut up and let us govern you and say what you can and cant do.....

Obama or McCain is not the answer...The people of this country need to put the government and all the slime balls of the world back in check.


Ditto! Thanks for saving me a bunch of typing CB..... couldn't have said it better myself and you know how I feel about government these days. Invasion of your privacy and a decline in the value of yourlife is for your own good and the good of your fellow Americans and their Homeland Security. Now shut up and fish.... if you can afford it.

Wish I had a few thousand barrels of oil to let sit in a cellar like wine until Goergeiepoo took office when the supply went to nothing and the demand went up by 50%. Yeah right....that should be his motto "We will sell no oil before it's time" We'd be buying it by the 150ml bottle complete with government approved cork and seal. Then they'll tell us the price of cork is up due to supply and demand. When will it end? Did someone say revolution?? 

(in reply to Carpet Bagger)
Post #: 27
RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/13/2008 10:37:21 AM   
rapala11

 

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i cannot measure the decline in monetary terms, not sure where to start, but i do know that my life has changed dramatically.  not only gas and health care, but in just about every aspect.  and i have to be honest, these changes have occurred in the administration.  maybe it was inevitable and it just fell on the shoulders of bush, but i think in reality, greed was given an open range to flourish in....and it did.  many of the guys i work with and many friends are not able to put a finger on it, but they all know that things have seriously changed.  in my 54 years, i cannot remember my existence and my feelings of being able to take care of myself and my family being threatened more that i do today.

our government has broken rules and laws and they do it without threat of penalty.  they have promoted fear to do this.  fear of terror, fears of running out of oil, fears that any kinds of medical system other than our own will be catastrophic.  they have become puppets of big corporations and we have become insignificant.

definately, the value of life has declined under bush, and sadly enough, the dems, after regaining control of congress, still did nothing.  but i do blame the bush administration and their agendas for starting this ball rolling.

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RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/13/2008 12:00:05 PM   
ROCKHARD


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first off,i.s.,, there is no invasion of privacy,per say,as you mention,,not one case of a PRIVATE CITIZENbeing wiretapped,,these are all overseas calls from here being monitored,, why you think the dems backed it, the ACLU, (never was for american rights) tried but didnt have no cases,they tried to trump up a few but failed,,, again,govt doesnt control price in gas,, all around the world, this is being discounted by even opec,the real cause,i know its hard for a liberal to understand,is demand and supply,, yes our demand is down ,but demand is up in developing nations,, you have the threat of war in the persian territory,major supply route, nigeria is in turmoil,, these all affect price,,think of it this way,if you knew your govt wanted to tax the hell out of your profits cause of inflated prices,,wouldnt you lower price and profit margin so as not to be taxed,, easy thinking ....,rap,you said it rigfht,,all govt brike the rules of governing, not just one man or party, bushes policies no doubt decimated this country, but where is the solutions the dems told us when they took control,, cause its hard for either party to do without the billions they make also off these oil profits

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Post #: 29
RE: Value of life decline under Bush administration - 7/13/2008 12:09:45 PM   
rapala11

 

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Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline
that is why i am a rebel.  to prove it, pelosi is as big a liar as cheney.  i think they are brother-sister.

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silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to ROCKHARD)
Post #: 30
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