RE: human feces in raystown waters

RE: human feces in raystown waters

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RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/28/2008 12:19:11 PM

glenp

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BTW -calling Juniata College an Ivy League school is a hoot!

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Post #: 31

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/28/2008 1:35:18 PM

thedrake

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From: Hollidaysburg, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: glenp

There could be several reasons for the excessive increase in nutrient concentrations seen
in the Little Juniata River during September. Although farming is prevalent along its
banks, it is unlikely that all of the nutrients came from farm runoff. No septic tank or
manure pit leaks were reported, nor were any highway spills. Two railroad bridges cross
the river roughly one mile upstream from LJ2, and chemicals or fertilizers carried in
railroad cars could have leaked

This quote is taken from your article

That quote is concerning the little Juniata river. We are talking about Spruce Creek. Nice try, but you'll have to find a relevant quote to prove me wrong.......Let's see one

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Post #: 32

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/28/2008 1:44:48 PM

spoonchucker

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"commercial fertilizer is not manure. It is the petroleum based product that most farmers use."

Then the farmers around me all use "petroleum based fertilizer". that has shiite scent added.

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Post #: 33

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/28/2008 1:45:42 PM

thedrake

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glenp

BTW -calling Juniata College an Ivy League school is a hoot!

You're right. I dont know what I was thinking. It is not an ivy league school. For whatever reason I was thinking Juniata was PA's ivy league school but just realized I got it confused with the Univ of Pennsylvania. I changed it in my post.

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Post #: 34

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/28/2008 4:06:11 PM

glenp

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Thelikely source of phosphorus is synthetic fertilizer applied to the field, which is then

washed into the stream by runoff. Since very little rain fell in the region during the

summer, very few of these fertilizers reached the stream, but instead remained in the

vegetation and the soil. This lack of runoff, along with the fact that phosphorus is the

limiting nutrient in freshwater and any excess would be quickly used for algae and plant

growth, resulted in the low phosphate concentrations during the summer.

This is talking about Spruce Creek...for the unitiated synthetic fertilizers are NOT manure. Again...I reiterate, if there was manure going into the creek DEP would be all over it.

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Post #: 35

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/28/2008 5:04:01 PM

thedrake

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Since you decided to skip a major part of that paragraph, I figured I would post the entire thing. There is something obviously skipped:

"One possible source of nitrates is waste from the livestock that are constantly in contact

with the stream and stream banks. Nitrogen fixation by vegetation, both natural and

planted, along the stream bank could also account for a constant supply of nitrates

(Kehew, 2001). Since phosphate concentration varies significantly with

discharge, it is assumed that phosphorus is introduced from outside the stream. The

likely source of phosphorus is synthetic fertilizer applied to the field, which is then

washed into the stream by runoff. Since very little rain fell in the region during the

summer, very few of these fertilizers reached the stream, but instead remained in the

vegetation and the soil. This lack of runoff, along with the fact that phosphorus is the

limiting nutrient in freshwater and any excess would be quickly used for algae and plant

growth, resulted in the low phosphate concentrations during the summer."

Once again, nice try.....

< Message edited by thedrake -- 6/28/2008 5:05:37 PM >

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Post #: 36

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/28/2008 11:01:49 PM

glenp

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From the beginning of the paragraph you posted:

One possible source of nitrates is waste from the livestock that are constantly in contact

with the stream and stream banks

You take a statement of conjecture and present it as fact...what does the word POSSIBLE mean to you? One possible source could be malfunctioning septic systems along the creek as well.

Once again...nice try...

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Post #: 37

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/29/2008 3:54:58 PM

spoonchucker

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Could be all the bull shiite posted on these boards ( in general, not specific to ANYONE ), leaking out through someone's computer.

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Post #: 38

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/29/2008 7:13:11 PM

thedrake

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OK so it does say possible source, let me ask you this, do those cows standing in the stream and on the streambanks hold in thier crap until they walk away from the stream? If they do, those are some well trained cows.

The study says the problems on Spruce Creek occur just below the agricultural areas. Perhaps its only the farms that have malufuntioning septic tanks. WOW what a coincidence!

The last paragraph in question lists 2 possible sources for high nitrate levels. One being waste from livestock, and the other being vegitation. With the problems being closer to the farms, I think we both know which one is most likely.

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Post #: 39

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/29/2008 7:20:37 PM

thedrake

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How many times have you guys who fish Spruce creek, fished the PSU stretch and the water smelled like manure just after a rain? I know I have.....

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Post #: 40

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/30/2008 7:29:31 AM

sagexp

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glenp

I'll gladly meet you on spruce creek and show you proof that someone in the valley is dumping cow poop into the spruce creek. This past Saturday I took my son fishing there. It took me all but 5 minutes to find a yellow foam pile that smells like cow s**t. The piles are not hard to find. They are anywhere from 6 to 10 inches high. You seem to see more in the morning than the after noon. I don't think it is still coming from Gilliland's (Gillbrook) farm after he got nailed for human poop. It could be coming from Cox's at 350 and dry hollow road. BUT I seen the foam as high as Jim Brown's and Dr Stever's house in Franklinville. You don't need to have rain to see it either. Wayne's lower cabin cornfield is in a flood plain and that is a different story. If you don't want to meet me there. Just give me your address and I can mail you some. That way you can get the just of the smell.

I'll work on getting you a picture. I'll see if my boy wants to go fishing tonight. So glenp, I'll be down there around 6:30 taking pictures if you want to meet me. Just name the place. That way I won't get blamed for planting foam.

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Post #: 41

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/30/2008 7:45:19 AM

SilverKype

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glenp

You're showing your ignorance...commercial fertilizer is not manure. It is the petroleum based product that most farmers use. It is also the stuff most yard fertilizers are made off. Silverkype...what day do you want to go to Harpsters? I can prove what I am saying...you can't prove what you are saying.

I would encourage you guys to not eat any meat (cows poop), eat or drink any milk products (cows poop), eat any vegetables (they need fertilized).

I'm not showing my ignorance. I put a question mark by it. That's means I asked a question. Get it?

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Post #: 42

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/30/2008 8:08:42 AM

SilverKype

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glenp

Silverkype...what day do you want to go to Harpsters? I can prove what I am saying...you can't prove what you are saying.

hmmmmmmm... I go by Spruce Creek everyday. Maybe I'll get some pictures in the coming future, if the cows are in "position." It's a shame 90% of the creek section they own is not visible from the road.

btw.. the DEP sure aren't all over the "floating trout pellets." It's just "something they'll keep in mind."

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Post #: 43

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/30/2008 5:08:01 PM

glenp

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Sagex

Believe me when I say that I have worked in more cow poop than you have ever seen. I have yet to see any that looked like yellow foam. It is always composed of varying amounts of liquid, undigestable fiber, and grain particles that moved too rapidly through the digestive system. What you are seeing is not manure.

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Post #: 44

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/30/2008 5:10:39 PM

glenp

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BTW - does anyone on this site know what nitrogen fixing vegetation is?

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Post #: 45

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/30/2008 6:33:16 PM

spoonchucker

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A mechanically inclined carrot?

actually there is NO nitrogen fixing vegetation. Only vegetation that have a symbionic relationship with notrogen fixing bacteria.

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Post #: 46

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/30/2008 8:02:33 PM

sagexp

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glenp

I'm not talking about the solid state. I'm talking about the liquid state. I kind they use when the spray on the field or dump into the creek. It tends to mix up better and blend in with the water than the solid stuff.

I scooped poop with Abe and Adam many moons ago. I'll give you a couple guesses on their last name.

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Post #: 47

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 6/30/2008 11:58:00 PM

glenp

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Spoon

You are correct about nitogen fixing vegetation...we usually give the credit to the plants.

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Post #: 48

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/1/2008 12:01:15 AM

glenp

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Sage

If you know a farmer dumping manure in a creek, pleeease report them to DEP. No farmer I know would ever risk the massive fines that would result from intentional dumping. The fines for accidental dumping can wipe out a family farm let alone the fines for intentional dumping.

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Post #: 49

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/1/2008 6:12:53 AM

sagexp

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I fish with one of the head man from DEP. He know something is wrong on Spruce by killing the bug life. They been looking into it. That is how they found out about Gillbrook farms. They are slowly going up stream.

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Post #: 50

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/1/2008 7:13:45 AM

glenp

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Sage

You make my point. The original post that was not factual stated that there were 1000 cows dumping waste into the creek daily. You say that DEP is aware that something is wrong. You can bet if the original statement is true, DEP would have moved in a long time ago on these 1000 cows and would have done something about it.

Something apparently is wrong...DEP does know about it. DEP is checking and watching. But at this point, nobody can pinpoint the source. Since we can't pinpoint the source, we place the blame on someone, regardless of the facts. Without even being there, I can tell you that 1000 cows do not stand in the creek every day and crap. Without even being there I can tell you that no farmer intentionally pumping manure into the creek. (If he/she is, they need to be prosecuted.)

BTW - I do not personally know any of the farmers along Spruce Creek so there is no personal agenda in this for me.

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Post #: 51

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/1/2008 8:20:19 AM

indsguiz

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Gentlemen,
    I am amazed at how quickly the subject veered from Raystown to Spruce Creek! But I would like to venture an opinion if I may. The problem along spruce is multifold. First there is the problem of increased development along the upper reaches. 2d there is the problem of antiquated sewage systems along the lower end. 3d the major increase in dairy farming along the stream. The foamy "suds" that smells like crap along the stream can (notice I say CAN) be caused by the influx of detergent or soap residue into the water. This, for some reason I don't fully know, has a marked affiity for biowaste (cow crap) and other organic waste since it is specifically designed to remove such material from our clothes.
    Given this and the fact that ONE person washing their car and letting the waste water run off into the stream can produce an adverse effect; imagine what the effect of the development upstream means.
    Next: The herbacides usd for plant control are a very close relative to detergent (ever seen the pink foam when a farmer "burns down" a field to kill the unwanted weeds before planting (no till).
   If you doubt the killing power of detergent; just spray some liquid on a weed or a patch of lawn. The increase in phospates is immense. See also: Home owners using Round-up, see more homeowners upstream.  See the increased use of herbacides by farmers as they turn to no- till farming methods designed to prevent erosion of top soil.
   So it is wrong IMO toplace the total blame on the farms. Yes they are a definate part of the problem but if you eliminate them you still have other parts of the problem to deal with.
    Face facts. cows need water! And DAIRY cows need lots of water. And since I've never seen a cow carrying a Brita bottle I will have to still assume that the cows go to the nearest creek to get a drink. And since cows don't usually regulate their elimination functions I would guess that they still crap in the creek; and bears do Sh*t in the woods.
    Now if you want to have a pristine stream you will need to: Eliminate all housing along the creek and its watershed. Stop people from washing clothes, or cars along the stream and stop farming.
    BTW there has always been farming along the creek and it was great in the 50's and 60's and 70's so maybe we need to take a look at what CHANGED since then and maybe go back and control the amount of change we have seen.   Like less development; smaller farms; less use of herbacides and chemical fertilizers.
    Or we could just put a 400 foot dam across at the narrows at Spruce Creek and create a nice lake for all the people on pontoon boats to crap in. BTW Indian Caverns could then become a water ride.


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Post #: 52

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/1/2008 1:45:09 PM

thedrake

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Driving on rt 45 yesterday, near Harpster's, where the cold spring comes out of the ground, there were at least a dozen cows standing in it. That spring is one of many that feeds Spruce Creek. I wonder if those cows were holding it in until they stepped out of the water? What do you think GlenP?

BTW, i'm not the only person who noticed it, silverwype did too. I imagine he'll post something about it as well, when he's done fishing for the day....

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Post #: 53

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/1/2008 4:37:50 PM

glenp

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a dozen is a far cry from 1300!

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RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/1/2008 4:42:48 PM

indsguiz

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drake,
It takes a lot of biowaste to foul a watersource. But it only takes a little chemical pollutant to do much more damage. I'm still betting on human expansion as a major part of the pollution. Do you have any idea how much oil/hydrocarbon residue gets washed into a creek when they pave a road? Or take chemical pollution from all the cars now running on 45? There is no doubt that the cows are causing some of the problem; it would be naive to not see a connection but My guess is human expansion.

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Post #: 55

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/1/2008 7:18:23 PM

spoonchucker

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Any way way you look at it, we are in a world of shiite.

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Post #: 56

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/2/2008 12:08:48 AM

thedrake

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quote:

ORIGINAL: indsguiz

drake,
It takes a lot of biowaste to foul a watersource. But it only takes a little chemical pollutant to do much more damage. I'm still betting on human expansion as a major part of the pollution. Do you have any idea how much oil/hydrocarbon residue gets washed into a creek when they pave a road? Or take chemical pollution from all the cars now running on 45? There is no doubt that the cows are causing some of the problem; it would be naive to not see a connection but My guess is human expansion.

I agree, there are certainly many factors that could be to blame, but as the study suggests, the major problem areas are just below the farms on spruce. If human expansion we the major cause of problems, Spring Creek would be much harder hit than Spruce, considering Spring Creek runs along both State College and Bellefonte. Although Spring Creek has its own problems, at least it still has a sulphur hatch, which has been nearly nonexistent on much of Spruce Creek over the past few years.

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Post #: 57

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/2/2008 10:05:19 AM

SilverKype

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Bingo .. drake. You nailed it. Spring Creek has more development, far more.

Glen

Doesn't matter 12 or 1300. Fact is, manure gets into the stream, the opposite of what you've been saying all along.

Below is a picture of the cows at Cool Run, on Cold Springs Rd. The stream is between the pines and cows. After 300 yard or so journey, it dumps into Spruce.

Debate it all you want fellas, but it's a fact bug life is practically non-existant just below well used cow areas. Spend some time on Spruce after a rain. You'll smell the shiiiit from Seven Stars, down on the PSU water.

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Post #: 58

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/2/2008 11:42:31 AM

aquaholic2

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FEW QUESTION HERE FELLAS
HOW LONG HAVE THESE COWS BEEN POOPIN IN OR NEAR SPRUCE CREEK (MANURE SPREADING INCLUDED)?
HOW LONG OR WHAT YEARS DID YOU START SEEIN A DECLINE IN AQUATIC CRITTERS?

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Post #: 59

RE: human feces in raystown waters - 7/2/2008 12:13:20 PM

glenp

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So the cows aren't even in the steam????

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Post #: 60