RE: no surprise about our prez...

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RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 4:25:52 PM

Jgut07

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rapala11

carp, what does iraq have to do with the war on terror?

also, what good has the war in iraq done. hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians dead, many more wounded, 5000 foreign soldiers dead, tens of thousands maimed for life. afganistan is the war on terror. not one iraqi took part in the attack of the wtc. we attacked iraq for a number of conceived reasons, none of which can be verified. quite obvious that you subscribe to the republican rhetoric that is shoved at us. we would not be fighting bin laden and his ghosts had we gone into afganistan, en masse, in the very beginning. btw, your post above sounds like an old bush commercial.

Rap,

I'm sorry, but I keep coming on here and reading this crap you are saying about republicans. I'm sorry, but republican rhetoric? Do you realize that I get slammed every single day by professors, teachers, the MEDIA with one sided oppinions about this country and everything that is wrong with it. Those one sided oppinions are FAR from being right winged. I swear to you, I have not yet had a high school teacher, or a college professor that has leaned to the right. But the republicans are the ones that slam their views on people? It is the complete opposite way. Just as I have said before on some of my posts, the dems have had the congress for how long now???? Everyone can agree that this country is mostly led by congress.

I dont like to say that I am a republican because alot of them make me sick. I think that all three president hopefulls are terrible ....TERRIBLE. I cant imagin what Hillary or Obama will do with there extreme liberal views (gun control, taxes, etc) and I really really do not want to vote for McCain. He says he is a conservative....far from it. It is a complete shame that we have to chose from them.

Carp,

I completely agree with you. I feel safe. I can drive down the road with no worry, I can sit in my boat with no worry. I love this country. Even with all the messed up things that happen sometimes, gas prices, and all that garbage, I wouldnt want to be anywhere else. It really bothers me that people are on Bush about his approval. They are the same people that supported him in the beginning, we all knew he was going to Iraq. We where there from day one, 90 some percent approved. I think people think that wars can be won in a year or two. Rap...you keep bringing up about the Iraqi being killed. They died fighting for a reason. Not because a man with a mustache wanted them dead to chuck them in a mass grave. And I dont really want to hear that Saddam had nothing to do with the terrorists, I'm not even going to go there. Apparently, Bin laden has to be in Afgan...he cant travel anywhere. Do you think that if the war was just in Afgan big Bin would be sitting there in that country?

This seems to be the saying.....so....thats my 2 cents. lol

(in reply to rapala11)

Post #: 31

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 4:27:35 PM

Jgut07

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and the 1/20/09 thing.....I dont think you have anything to look forward to when you look at the canidates. From reading your posts, I think your whole main concern is jobs. Like I said before, I dont think jobs are going to be created in youngstown anytime soon.

(in reply to Jgut07)

Post #: 32

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 4:30:39 PM

rapala11

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spoon, we just talked about pelosi and dean today, and we agree.

carp....the women and kids are better off? 100s of 1000 are dead and the same wounded or maimed for life. better off?

i don't remember the iraqis asking us to help with independence or relief from hussein. do you? if we are that concerned about helping women and children, why aren't we in the darfur region of the sudan where milllions have been killed or wounded?

what does iraq have to do with attacks on our country by bin laden? there has been nothing postive about our involvement there for anyone. the whole middle east hates us now, our european allies have all bailed because they know it was wrong, and many more radicals have been born to hate us because we invaded the wrong country. how many more bin ladens and al zarahiris have we created? try to explain to some iraqi family that the death of their children was just collateral damage and that they are better off for our involvement there.

nothing good has come from this administration. (i disliked clinton too, so i am not prejudiced). as for being attack, the press says clinton should have acted. he didn't. bad. bush had the same intelligence that clinton did for 9 months. he did not act. because they BOTH didn't, we were attacked. we will be attacked again, because the hate for our country has spread throughout that region because of our meddling.

btw, bin laden and hussein did not like nor trust each other.

_____________________________

01/20/09

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..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 33

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 4:39:26 PM

spoonchucker

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Carp,

Do you REALLY believ they haven't attacked here, because were keeping them too busy there? It only took 19 to carry out 9-11. I'm pretty sure they could free up a few dozen from "the front".

Most intelligence estimates/analysts say we are LESS safe. Because our rescources our being depleted, and occupied in the WRONG place, and because we are CREATING more terrorists than we're killing.

Iraq was NOT a haven, ( though I agree, since we removed Sadam, it may become one when we leave ). Al quaida in Iraq, didn't exist until we invaded. The ORIGINAL Al Quaida, is using these surrogates to keep us occupied in Iraq, while they rebuild, and plot on the Afghan/Pakistan border. The already HAVE a safe haven.

The main reason they haven't attacked, is their patient nature. They are more than willing to wait as long as it takes untill they can develope the perfect plan ( It's not as though they have a navy, airforce, or massive military force, with which they can lainch an invasion). Meanwhile they sit back, and watch our miltary weakened, and our economy damaged as we fight terrorists that WE created.

Even Dick Cheney continues to repeat that it is not IF, but WHEN we will be attacked again.

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Post #: 34

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 4:43:22 PM

rapala11

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j, sorry, son but you haven't been here long enough to draw judgement on me. my being is not for jobs here. youngstown is paying for not diversifying industry back in the 40s and 50s and nothing is going to change that. you know where i work, and you know that it is a pretty good paying job.

my slam is not against republicans. read my posts, i am afraid of all three candidates. my claim to fame here is my disgust with the war on iraq and the greed that has changed my country. many of us grew up in the viet nam era and we are seeing the same mistakes over and over. in the end, it just ends in death and miserry for many.

i have seen good presidents and bad, but this guy is absolutely the worst. just one bungle after another. for those who have been around for the last 7 years, ask yourself, are you better off know. don't think so.

j, again, if we were so worried about the independence of the iraqi people, why not the same in somalia and the sudan? why are we alone in iraq now? and who asked us into the region. al qaeda wasn't even in iraq until long after we got there. and it was only then that they opened up a "chapter". since then, they have spread. we should have taken care of matters in afganistan when we had the chance.

as for being afraid to say you are a republican, this is america. don't you dare be afraid. you have that right to believe in what you want to. when this war broke out, myself and my partner at work, a nam vet, were the only ones who objected. we were ostracized. funny how times change things. don't just listen to the news, your professors, or others. read. get all the info you can. then make up your mind.

as for republicans, i never vote straight party ticket. have voted dem, republican, independent and write in many times. i cherish my vote.

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 35

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 4:55:10 PM

spoonchucker

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I feel safe as h@ll driving down the road, sitting my boat, standing on the stream. No because of anything Bush has done, but because the odds a terrorist act would be centered in my areas of travel are infintesimal. If I lived in a large city, I might feel less safe, but more so from our own homegrown terrorists ( gangs, drug addicts, and general hoodlums ), than from Islamic terrorists. They kill more Americans every week, maybe every day, than "big Bin" ever imagined.

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Post #: 36

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 4:56:28 PM

rapala11

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jack, thank's for posting reality.

jgut, just got my mail. got another letter from george voinivich in it. as you know, george is the republican senator from ohio. from time to time i request info or ask question from both senators. the info i get back helps me to make a somewhat informed opinion on issues. sometimes i agree with r, sometimes d. i don't dislike all repubs. lots of really good ones. i don't like pelosi, feel she is full of empty words.

that being said, i have no use for the current administration. as a college student, you have the advantage of youthful passions integrated with the hopes of tomorrow and the stark realities of today. i was the same 40 years ago. now i see things more clearly at times. this administration is bad, real bad. in many areas, the have failed. as for what is coming, it may be only worse. i will tell you this, i voted for bush the first term. i feel i was duped and lied to. what he spewed in the beginning was nothing but carl rove's facade.

one more thing, the crappie are in up at pikie bay, north. work the timber.

< Message edited by rapala11 -- 5/3/2008 4:57:53 PM >

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 37

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:06:01 PM

spoonchucker

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It's not her WORDS that seem empty latley. She appears very confused, and BOTH are very weak leaders.

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Post #: 38

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:07:19 PM

carpitiss

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"carp....the women and kids are better off? 100s of 1000 are dead and the same wounded or maimed for life. better off?"

saddam hussein directed an atrocious campaign involving mass evacuations, mass executions, and massive military actions, including chemical attacks, against kurdish men, women and children. the town of halabja was the victim of the most notorious chemical weapons attack. and the people of that area are still suffering serious illnesses and deformities as a result. applying hot irons and electric currents while nailed to a wall were standard treatments of torture. estimates have it at around 1.5 million people. have you heard of the term "genocide"? not too far from what hitler and other dictators have done it the past.

whatever your disagreements about the war in iraq may be, please do not lose sight of the fact that the US has done something to stop the suffering of the iraqi people from a ruthless, evil dicatator. i really don't care that this was not the main reason for going to war in the first place. and yes of course there has been collateral damage. i am NOT arguing that. that happens with every war. but the collateral damage of a war outweighs the millions of iraqis that died and suffered for so many years while saddam ruled.

so, yes they ARE better off. and so are Americans. you cannot sit back and allow terrorist networks to operate with impunity. you need to take the offensive. which is exactly what we have been doing for the past seven years or so. do you want to sit around and wait for another attack on the US?

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Post #: 39

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:13:14 PM

rapala11

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Escaping the Trap: Why the United States Must Leave Iraq

by Ted Galen Carpenter

Ted Galen Carpenter, vice president for defense and foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute, is the author of seven books on international affairs and a coauthor of Exiting Iraq: Why the U.S. Must End the Military Occupation and Renew the War against Al Qaeda (2004).
Published on February 14, 2007

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The U.S. military occupation of Iraq has now lasted longer than U.S. involvement in World War II. Yet there is no end in sight to the mission.

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Ted Galen Carpenter, vice president for defense and foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute, is the author of seven books on international affairs and a coauthor of Exiting Iraq: Why the U.S. Must End the Military Occupation and Renew the War against Al Qaeda (2004).
More by Ted Galen Carpenter
Staying in Iraq is a fatally flawed policy that has already cost more than 3,000 American lives and consumed more than $350 billion. The security situation in that country grows increasingly chaotic and bloody as evidence mounts that Iraq has descended into a sectarian civil war between Sunnis and Shiites. Approximately 120 Iraqis per day are perishing in political violence. That bloodshed is occurring in a country of barely 26 million people. A comparable rate of carnage in the United States would produce more than 1,400 fatalities per day.
That reality is a far cry from the optimistic pronouncements the administration and its supporters made when the war began. We were supposed to be able to draw down the number of our troops to no more than 60,000 before the end of 2003, and Iraqi oil revenues were to pay for the reconstruction of the country.
Even worse, Iraq has become both a training ground and a recruiting poster for Islamic extremists. U.S. occupation of Iraq has become yet another grievance throughout the Muslim world and has exacerbated our already worrisome problem with radical Islamic terrorism.
It is time to admit that the Iraq mission has failed and cut our losses. The notion that Iraq would become a stable, united, secular democracy and be the model for a new Middle East was always an illusion. We should not ask more Americans to die for that illusion.
Withdrawal will not be without cost. Radical Islamic factions will portray a withdrawal as a victory over the American superpower. We can minimize that damage by refocusing our efforts on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and elsewhere, but there is no way to eliminate the damage. Even superpowers have to pay a price for wrongheaded ventures.
Whatever price we will pay for withdrawing from Iraq, however, must be measured against the probable cost in blood and treasure if we stay. That cost is already excessive. We are losing soldiers at the rate of more than 800 per year, and the financial meter is running at some $8 billion per month. With President Bush's announcement of a "surge" of 21,500 additional troops, the pace of both will increase.
Worst of all, there is no reasonable prospect of success even if we pay the additional cost in

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 40

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:19:05 PM

carpitiss

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"Al quaida in Iraq, didn't exist until we invaded."

which is EXACTLY the way we want it. al quaida and other terrorist networks are filtering into our STRONG point----where our army is. in a way, it is genius. terrorists are being engaged by our military over there NOT civilians here in the US.

it is true there are other saft havens for terrorists---they are all over the world, but they are fidning it virtually impossible to set up an operate in iraq.

why are terrorists filtering into a country that contains so many US forces? could it be a strategical country geographically for terrorist networks or are they intentionally engaging US forces? anybody want to answer this one? i guess the answer really doesn't matter does it?

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RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:22:25 PM

spoonchucker

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"saddam hussein directed an atrocious campaign involving mass evacuations, mass executions, and massive military actions, including chemical attacks, against kurdish men, women and children"

You forget, that he did this with weapons WE provided him, because we were interferring where we didn't belong, and without regard to the long term consequences.

Actually, When Bush acted on his OWN instincts ( immediately after 9-11 ), he was following the correct course. Unfortunately, he allowed himself to be led astray by Wolfy, and quickdraw McCheney. He is now too invested, to let go.

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Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

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Post #: 42

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:25:01 PM

rapala11

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carp, that ruthless dicatator was deposed 5 years ago (mission accomplished) and yet the suffering and carnage continue. the deaths that i speak of have most occurred since his removal. there is no end in sight. unemployment is high, infrastructure destroyed, the economy in shambles and the puppets that we put into government there are hoarding oil revenues, while we continue to dump billions into the country.

again, remind me of when they asked for our help, and why not the sudan, somalia, tibet, haiti, and so on? i am sure that you or i have little use for the un, but they ultimately should be the ones who act. it should not be us. too many americans have died for other governments. you will never hear me bad-mouth the war in afganistan. i hate war (i am a practicing Christian) but i believe we have a right to defend our liberities, including the right to worship as i choose. however, no iraqi ever came close to violating these rights. none of the hijackers were iraqis. the only thing that iraq did was violate un sanctions, not us sanctions, and pay the families of hezbollah suicide bombers a pittance for their deaths. hussein was a despot, an idiot, and a mass murderer. so was hitler. so was idi amin. so was papa doc duvalier. this rock is full of them. in later years, after the war with iran, hussein was contained and ostracized by the arab world. his army was in shambles after bush sr. kicked him out of kuwait. he was a shadow of the idiot that he was prior. so tell me, why did we attack them?

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 43

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:28:29 PM

carpitiss

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Ted Galen Carpenter "Exiting Iraq: Why the U.S. Must End the Military Occupation and Renew the War against Al Qaeda"

tell me, does he really believe that al quaeda will NOT take over iraq should the US decide to leave? lol. renew the war where? here in the US? if the US leaves, iraq will be one BIG terrorist camp.....

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Post #: 44

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:31:42 PM

rapala11

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carp, you say that bin ladens thugs are setting up in other countries. you are so correct. fact is, they were in these countries long before they or us were in iraq. we cannot attack every country that they are in. we just don't have the manpower or the right. had we taken care of bin laden right after 9/11, we would not be having this discussison. bush's approval rating would be 60% or better. but he chose a different war direction and we are mired in quicksand now.

remember right after the attacks on 9/11, both bush and rumsfeld talked about small, surgical strikes aimed at individual terrorist cells. they said this would be a war like no other, going on for long times, but using small amounts of special forces. what has happened?

no, bush's legacy is of failed policies. and all the repulicans and democrats who voted for this war (under the fervor of misguided patriotism) should hang there heads and admit that they were wrong.

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..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 45

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:33:15 PM

carpitiss

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"You forget, that he did this with weapons WE provided him, because we were interferring where we didn't belong, and without regard to the long term consequences."

spoon, that's equivalent to the cliche "guns don't kill people, people kill people" right? last i looked, the US has been supplying weapons (in one way or another) to almost everybody. did the US supply him with CHEMICAL weapons?

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RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:34:48 PM

rapala11

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carp, the middle east is one big camp now. this author writes for the cato institute. an independent think-tank. i believe he knows a bit more than me. lol. really, i think once we leave, if we ever do, that the country will fall into civli war, with the iranian influence spilling over the border. the whole region will become more volatile than ever. and this would not have happened had we just sat back.

_____________________________

01/20/09

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..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 47

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:38:58 PM

carpitiss

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"again, remind me of when they asked for our help, and why not the sudan, somalia, tibet, haiti, and so on?"

the initial reason for the war in iraq was NOT to help the iraqi people. it was merely a perk so to speak (albeit a really good one)

why can't one nation of people be helped while others are not? i don't understand this mentality. so, you are saying that if we don't help everyone then there is not rationale for helping iraqis? please explain this to me! perhaps we WILL eventually help other nations, i don't know. but to say we shouldn't continue to help iraq because we should focus on every other nations is ridiculous....

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RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:41:01 PM

carpitiss

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"and this would not have happened had we just sat back."

not just millions of women and children would have continued to be tortured, raped, and gassed....

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Post #: 49

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:43:23 PM

spoonchucker

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Carp,

Al Quaida in Iraq did NOT "filter into" Iraq. It is comprised of Iraqis ( who were not previously terrorists ) that have since aligned themselves with Al Quaida.

Nearly all of our casualties have come at the hands of Iraqi insurgents, not "infiltrating terrorists". THEY are engaging us, because they fear control of their country by an opposing sect ( AND western influence ). Occupation ALWAYS breeds terrorism. And yes outside groups are interfering for a variety of reasons. Al quaida ( the main group ) is backing these groups, as they keep us occupied there, while THEY build strength elsewhere.

They, (Iraqis) MIGHT want freedom, but NOT the kind WE have, or want to instill there. They don't want their children to admire the Brittneys, or Michael Vicks.

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RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:43:42 PM

rapala11

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tomorrow i am going to hear a former un weapons inspector speak. from what i understand, he got fed up with it all and has become a peace activist. should be interesting.

carp, we supplied hussein with arms in his battle against iraq. that is where he got his start. we supplied the iranians with weapons when we helped put the shah into power. now those weapons are being used against us and the iraqi people. dang, we have helped arm the whole region and they either hate us or don't trust us. in the beginning, we supplied the mujhadeen (did i butcher the spelling?) in afganistan against the russians. bin laden was one of these nomadic mercenaries. so we also had a hand in training him (remember oliver north?). because we got caught meddling, we are paying or going to pay the price. we may get attacked again. and in the end, it will be a result of failed policies.

< Message edited by rapala11 -- 5/3/2008 5:50:18 PM >

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01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 51

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:45:28 PM

spoonchucker

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"did the US supply him with CHEMICAL weapons?"

YES!

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Post #: 52

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:47:34 PM

spoonchucker

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"last i looked, the US has been supplying weapons (in one way or another) to almost everybody."

YUP!, and it has rather cosistently bitten us in the arse. Maybe we should stop, or be more careful about it?

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Post #: 53

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 5:48:06 PM

rapala11

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carp, i still don't know why we are in iraq. the reasons have changed many times.....un sanction violations.....wmd.......terrorisms.......dicatator.......democracy. each time, the administration is confronted, the make a right turn. when cheney was interviewed three weeks ago, he was told that the majority of the people in this country were against this war, and his answer was ......SO? man, this just aint supposed to happen.

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..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

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Post #: 54

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 6:11:41 PM

carpitiss

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ugggggghhhh! i hate politics!

i agree to disagree! lol..... i need to get out and do something now.

nice debate tho.

< Message edited by carpitiss -- 5/3/2008 6:15:07 PM >

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Post #: 55

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 6:31:06 PM

jonnyfishon

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I feel safe. I can drive down the road with no worry, I can sit in my boat with no worry. I love this country.

You live in pa. Do you really think the terrorist are going to attack you? Every day when i cross the gw or the tappan zee bridge or if im downtown i worry. I watched 911 from ellis island and was the first trade(next to the fire,police,med)to help out. We lost alot of brothers and sisters that day. Life never "RETURNED" To normal here. I go about my buiness when im in the city but it will always be in the back of my mind what happen and what could happen again. This bullsh!t government has done nothing to remove that worry.

(in reply to Jgut07)

Post #: 56

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 6:46:08 PM

lhazlett

Posts: 9
Joined: 5/18/2007
Status: offline

i have tapes of when the war started with high ranking iraqi military people saying we wouldnt find wmd because the crossed the border hours before we did..right or wrong do we realy want to give the terrorists another country. they would pick a side cause a civil war then beat the winning side and presto then were would they go here maybe i dont want my kids to have to fight in the streets instead of going to school... the economy give me a break quit whinning and face fact just like threw out history change if you dont addapt and change you go extinct.. i personally make more now then ever before not enough mind ya.and bush is the only pres to give me cash to try to sper the economy and yes i voted for bush

(in reply to jackq)

Post #: 57

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 8:26:10 PM

rapala11

Posts: 2273
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: online

hey carp, we agree....politics sux. never mean anything personal. i always felt the need to speak out against the madness (david cosby). thomas mann once said war was an escape from peace. it is much harder to work for the latter. wish our leaders could discuss and solve problems the way we do. but i guess we can do it because we haven't financial gain to achieve.

_____________________________

01/20/09

silence means consent

..."Old men start wars...young men die in them."

(in reply to lhazlett)

Post #: 58

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 8:33:54 PM

Jgut07

Posts: 84
Joined: 2/11/2008
Status: offline

jonny....

I live in PA...This is the PA offtopic board right?....I go to school right in downtown Pittsburgh. I know that anything could happen. It could happen at anytime. By being safe I was referring to not having a war being fought in our country. I worry more about the thugs on wood street, and 3rd ave. 911 will always be in my mind. I think that is a problem today...people forget about that horrible day. I was only in 9th grade...but couldnt sleep for weeks because of it. The terrorists could probably attack when they want. But I'm sure there have been attacks stopped that we dont know about. I know that I dont have to worry about akmed and jibab and his brothers all around me with ak's at the present moment.

(in reply to lhazlett)

Post #: 59

RE: no surprise about our prez... - 5/3/2008 9:11:29 PM

jackq

Posts: 158
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Altoona/Newville, PA.
Status: online

Why do you guys keep saying "fighting a war in our country???? Do you think all the terrorist are going to arm themselves and fight it out with us on Madison Ave. or Broadway or the Blvd of the Allies???? That is NOT their style. Hell, they're not doing it in Iraq!! They call them insurgents now, we used to call them guerrillas. A rose by any other name........ And they've got us right where they want us; on their turf. Home field advantage.
As far as attacks being stopped, don't you think that would be plastered all over the front page....."Hey, look what we did!! We saved your sorry butt. Aren't we great?!?!"

(in reply to Jgut07)

Post #: 60

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