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RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 11:06:22 AM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		I know it happens in a lot of areas.  They however stay in the river -- aka resident.  Resident fish don't go some place (in this case a lake) and return 2-4 years later to spawn.  Smoltification is the migration to the lake or the sea.  I will not deny that we have "fake" steelhead when comparing them to their ancestors but I would never accept that GL fish are not steelhead.  Their life cycles are totally different from resident fish.


(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 91
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 11:22:52 AM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

I know it happens in a lot of areas.  They however stay in the river -- aka resident.  Resident fish don't go some place (in this case a lake) and return 2-4 years later to spawn.  Smoltification is the migration to the lake or the sea.  I will not deny that we have "fake" steelhead when comparing them to their ancestors but I would never accept that GL fish are not steelhead.  Their life cycles are totally different from resident fish.




the example i provided with elevenmile res and the south platte is an example of a resident fish living in a lake... then migrating to a river to spawn... then returning to the lake...all

if you call erie fish steelhead... you need to include these fish...

you say these are a "fake" steelhead... i agree... thats what this has been all about...
a "fake" steelhead is a rainbow tout...

what about the article from the CA fish and game...
steelhead becoming resident trout when blocked from the ocean... the still have some migration...but no salt means no steel...
it also tells of a resident population that can become steel once access is allowed to the sea...

SO if a trib was dug from erie to the ocean, the fish who made it to salt and back are then steelhead... the ones who didn't touch salt... rainbows

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 92
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 11:52:36 AM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		That's your opinion that "fake" steelhead are a rainbow.  You're using the salt as your idea.  It's mine that a GL steelhead are a steelhead.  I'm using smoltification.  A resident rainbow in the platte are not smolting.  Are they stockings from west coast steelhead ??  Not likely.  ALL rainbow trout migrate to flowing water to spawn, they need gravel to bury their eggs.  Our fish still smolt but they just end up in fresh.  There bodies still prepare for it, you ever catch a smolting steelhead??  A platte river fish look like that ?  If we were to stock smolts and resident rainbows in any GL stream, many of those rainbows would never leave the stream but you can bet your a§§ those smolts would and they'd return in a few year.  I catch rainbows in upper tribs here and there, they certainly are not steelhead.  They are club stockings.

Get yourself Dave Wolf's book on PA flyfishing.  It explains something of migrating rainbows and steelhead in the GL.  Ontario have rainbows and steelhead.  Like I said, search the old salmon river board. 

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 93
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 12:11:06 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online 		you say that smoltification is a criteria for steelhead...I asked for a definition of smoltification... your answer was migration...then you say that all rainbows migrate to spawn... i'm confused... and I still waiting for someone to provide a definition of steelhead that is any different than "an anadromous rainbow trout"

how do the bodies of the GL fish prepare for smolting???
hens have eggs and males go into spawning colors???  happens with rainbows...


smolts are unique to steelhead, and i would challenge that smolts can exist in G.L.
A smolt is a juvenile fish. This is the stage where Salmonid becomes physiologically adapted to saltwater and begins its trek to its salt water environment
 
it sounds like smolts can't exist without salt water...
 

i have the book at home and will take a look this evening...

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 94
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 12:32:37 PM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		I should have been more clear on migration.  More like downstream migration, I wan't refering to upstream migration to spawn.  Yes, smolting is preparing for the salt by definition while migrating..but it is that drive to even go.  I don't know what makes them do that.  Our fish still smolt though.  I'll ask again, were platte river fish stocked from west coast steelhead?  If not, how can you even begin to say they should be compared to GL steelhead ?  

Look at your definition above. -- begins its trek --
Do our steelhead NOT begin their trek in our streams?  Yes they do.  Just not to salt.  That to ME, doesn't make them NOT a steelhead.  The salt doesn't change where our fish originally came from.  To you, it might.  You're about the only one.. 

I guess the ultimate test would be to take our steelhead smolts to the west coast and see if they can survive the salt.  You can bet they'd do the migration.  Then try some resident rainbows.  Could they survive the salt?  Probably wouldn't even migrate.  I'll let that up to you though since you're so hellbent on proving to the world GL don't have steelhead. 

< Message edited by SilverKype -- 11/30/2007 12:36:20 PM >

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 95
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 12:34:37 PM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		opps..

< Message edited by SilverKype -- 11/30/2007 12:35:33 PM >

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 96
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 12:37:39 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online 		so smoltification is the migration of the young fish from the water where there were born/stocked into a large body where they will live???

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 97
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 12:42:55 PM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		Well.. a textbook definition would say to the sea or ocean.   We say GL.  There are a ton of definitions out there, I'm certainly not a dictionary.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 98
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 1:30:37 PM   
smoltguy

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 2/21/2001
Status: offline 		Smoltification of steelhead and salmon involve physical, chemical and behavioral changes.  Physical changes include the silvering of body due to the deposition of guanine and hypoxanthine in the skin or scales and behavioral changes include a change in their community structure from loners to schooling groups.  I remember a retired biologist from NY mentioned once that if the Salmon River hatchery held on to their yearling steelhead too long and they progressed through smolting in the hatchery, they would bunch up against the downstream fences in the holding ponds and would actually start dieing if not released.  There is also a bunch of chemical changes that occur : a couple would be hormonal level fluctuations and a change in the gill surface permeability to water and salt.  Most of these changes prepare the fishes' bodies to osmo-regulate in saltwater, which is quite different than osmotic pressures in freshwater. 

If you take a stream, non-migratory rainbow trout and stick it in saltwater, it will die because it doesn't have the above mechanisms to allow it to survive the different osmotic pressures in saltwater. 

In my mind (and I have no proof to back this up) all these changes have to be driven by genetics.  It has been proven that steelhead and salmon from different tributaries of the same main river system have slight genetic variations so there probably is some difference in genetics between steelhead and resident rainbow populations.  It may be so slight that the fish's basic genes are the same and the difference is deeper in the DNA.


< Message edited by smoltguy -- 11/30/2007 1:33:50 PM >

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 99
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 2:18:59 PM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		Thanks for the education smoltguy although I have no clue what some of those words are.    I was waitin' for you to step in with something.

(in reply to smoltguy)
Post #: 100
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 2:26:39 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online 		so it sounds like the smolting process (kype's definiton of steelhead) is to "osmo-regulate saltwater"...
a process not done in the G.L. ...


another layer to the discussion...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Well.. a textbook definition would say to the sea or ocean.   We say GL.  There are a ton of definitions out there, I'm certainly not a dictionary.


GOT YA!!!  ding ding   SilverKype is down... 1....2....3.......  could this be a TKO in the 98th post???

(in reply to smoltguy)
Post #: 101
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 2:35:39 PM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		Oh my God, like that was soooo  like immature KHJ. auh, as if..auh

According to what smoltguy said, it sounds like our fish are STILL steelhead to me.  I think you should reread it a few times K.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 102
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 3:58:08 PM   
smoltguy

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 2/21/2001
Status: offline 		Smoltification does occur in Great Lakes steelhead.  How it was explained to me was that the reason for emigration of juveniles to saltwater is mostly metabolic, streams don't have the resources to meet steelhead's metabolism.  The smoltification process facilitates the transition from freshwater to saltwater. 

When talking about the Great Lakes, the steelhead still smolt (they don't realize there is no salt water waiting for them), just like their west coast ancestors but once they enter the lake they find the food supply sufficient to meet their metabolic needs.  Once that requirement is met they revert back to their "freshwater body form".  

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 103
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 4:12:22 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online 		i think i have an understanding of the smoltification process...
it is a series of changes that take place that will allow a fish to travel from fresh to salt water at a junvenile stage???


question...
what is the cause of the emigration of PA "stocked smolts"???
water temps??? lunar phases???   


< Message edited by KJH807 -- 11/30/2007 4:15:36 PM >

(in reply to smoltguy)
Post #: 104
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 5:31:54 PM   
smoltguy

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 2/21/2001
Status: offline 		The PA steelhead, even though they are this "mutt" type strain, must still have enough of the original steelhead strain(s) in their traits to still be able to go through this process.  I think I remember guys mentioning catching silvered up juveniles in the spring.   The silver coloration (and darkening of the fins, I forgot about that above) is the only real outward visible sign that you can distinguish steelhead from other rainbows. 

I will be the first to say that I am not all that familiar with PA's strain of steelhead.  NY's strain (Chambers Creek), even though the first eggs NY obtained were from Michigan, has a little more direct lineage to the west coast (Washington state in this case).   I spent three years looking at naturally produced steelehead juveniles from the Catt tribs and while the one year olds were a little tough to tell if they were smolting, the two year olds were obvious (see pictures below if the come out). 





added 12/3/07 (forgot capitalization doesn't work with the image codes)


< Message edited by smoltguy -- 12/3/2007 8:53:50 AM >

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 105
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/30/2007 6:07:59 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online 		smoltguys pics



(in reply to smoltguy)
Post #: 106
RE: tell me about steelhead - 12/2/2007 10:06:50 PM   
Fishtamer

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 1/21/2007
Status: offline 		A recent article in "FIELD and STREAM" stated that there were no steelhead(or whatever you call them) in Lake Erie before 1966. It stated that Bob Hetz, of Fairview, PA, cofounded the conservation group 3-C-U in 1966. The group collected and raised 800 steelhead fry from a Lake Michigan tributary, stocking them in Erie's waters. In the 1970's, Hetz, a retired nursery worker, got eggs from Michigan, Oregon and New York. The group combined those strains to have a bastardized Lake Erie Steelhead. The article states that he still is the nursery manager of 3-C-U. If this is true, THANK YOU Mr. Hetz for all the fun you have created, no matter what we choose to call them.

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 107
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/13/2008 10:05:09 AM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online 		BUMP
 
Its that time a year
i re-read the entire thread... good convo
 
 
notice there are no personal attacks

(in reply to Fishtamer)
Post #: 108
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/13/2008 12:31:58 PM   
Wild John


Posts: 139
Joined: 5/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

BUMP
 
Its that time a year
i re-read the entire thread... good convo
 
 
notice there are no personal attacks


I'll agree KJH, it's very good convo, and throw this one out there (my humble opinion):
ALL Rainbow Trout (and all other members of the family Oncorhynchus, including all Pac. salmon and trout (cutts, goldens, etc.)) were once anadromous. Some became landlocked and evolved into the species they are today. That the Erie fish do not migrate to salt (thanks for adding patadromous to my vocab) does not change the fact that their not-so-distant relatives did, and that their urge to migrate must be driven from that genetic code.
All of these species are native ONLY to the West Slope of the continental divide. Anything else is a transplant. So my question is, does that make those other fish (including that mutant from Lake Deifenbaker) something other than rainbow trout because they are not in their native habitat? That they have adapted to the specific environment in which they live doesn't (IMO) change their species (which should be a matter of DNA only). In my opinion, steehead is really nothing more than a coloquial name. So calling the Erie fish steelhead, frankenfish, or Joe the Plumber is simply a matter of taste (not the fish's taste, because we all know that sux)

-No personal attacks, just my opinion hoping to further develop the discussion.
-WJ

(edit- left out the "y" in oncorhynchus. Can you blame me?)

< Message edited by Wild John -- 11/13/2008 12:33:37 PM >

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 109
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/13/2008 12:38:58 PM   
Cold


Posts: 1013
Joined: 3/27/2008
From: Latrobe, PA
Status: online 		Nice bit of thread necromancy here, KJH.  I've chimed in on the other thread with my initial analysis, though I'll take a page from Wild John here and start referring to every fish I catch in Erie as a Plumber, the males are Joe and the hens are...Jane?  Jill?  Sarah?

(in reply to Wild John)
Post #: 110
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/13/2008 2:58:35 PM   
Bwayangler

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/14/2008
Status: offline 		"Steelhead are an anadromous strain of rainbow trout. That is, they spend most of there life in the ocean or in the Great Lakes and return to tributary streams to spawn. Rainbow trout are the landlocked form, so to speak, as they do not have a tendency to migrate from one body of water to another. The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission plants steelhead rather than rainbow trout in the Lake Erie drainage" (http://www.fish.state.pa.us/pafish/steelhead/id.htm).

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 111
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/13/2008 2:59:04 PM   
Bwayangler

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/14/2008
Status: offline 		I'd like to see your works cited!

(in reply to Bwayangler)
Post #: 112
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/13/2008 3:30:16 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online 		you quoted the PFBC... who has a huge financial stake in saying there fish are called steelhead...

nowhere else does the difinition of steelhead contain reference to the Great Lakes

edit...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bwayangler

I'd like to see your works cited!


i have citied many more reputable sources in this thread

< Message edited by KJH807 -- 11/13/2008 3:41:33 PM >

(in reply to Bwayangler)
Post #: 113
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/14/2008 12:56:41 AM   
pafisher

 

Posts: 2080
Joined: 8/15/2002
Status: offline 		Who cares what you want to call them?They're lots of fun to catch and look like a Steelhead to me.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 114
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/14/2008 3:25:22 AM   
FiveMilePete

 

Posts: 889
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I meant to post this last year, but since this was resurrected:

Nagy states in his Steelhead Guide that "between 1885 and 1900, steelhead were originally transplanted from the Pacific Northwest and other Great Lakes into various Lake Erie triutaries." He also states that fingerlings were obtained from Washington State in 1961 and released into tribs that alread had some lake run DOMESTICATED rainbows.

"In 1966 Norm Ely...................., felt that the modest runs of lake-run "rainbows" ............could be increased by raising juvenile fish in raceway facilities and the releasing them as yearlings.................  "

"In July of 1966, a group of individuals .............. seined 600 wild steelhead fry from Bear Run and Thomas Run, which are tributaries of Walnut Creek"

"This program, along with the efforts of the PFBC formed the foundation of the modern Pennsylvania steelhead fishery program."

So I guess there were steelhead in Lake Erie Tribs before 1966. I would
believe Nagy before I would believe F&S.

(in reply to Fishtamer)
Post #: 115
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/14/2008 10:43:27 AM   
egg sac


Posts: 2514
Joined: 10/2/2000
Status: offline 		Over 20 years ago I had some of the old timers tell me about lake run rainbows in conneaut creek even before the korean war era..so we are talking as early as 1950 thier was some runs

_____________________________

SO MANY FISH SO LITTLE TIME.
WHY ARE ALL THE PLACES I HAVE YET 2 FISH SO FAR AWAY?

(in reply to FiveMilePete)
Post #: 116
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/14/2008 12:26:23 PM   
heatsink

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline 		I just read this article with great interest and found it very educational.  I can see both arguments but based on the scientific evidence regarding the smoltification process I would have to say the Erie Rainbow deserve to be called Steelhead.  (At least PA Steelhead) Once the rainbow trout change from dark-colored parr in a freshwater stream environment to silvery smolts, they become steelhead, (this happens before migration) wheather or not there is salt in the greater water they migrate to or not is really irrevalent IMHO.  See the info below from biologists a lot smarter that me. 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2475755
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/179/3/1559

Abstract'The timing and propensity for migration between fresh- and seawater is a key theme in the diversity of life histories within the salmonid fishes. Across salmonid species, life-history strategies range from wholly freshwater-resident populations, to migratory and nonmigratory variation within populations, to populations and species that are primarily migratory. Despite the central theme of migration to the evolution of these fishes, the genetic architecture of migration-related processes is poorly understood. Using a genetic cross of clonal lines derived from migratory and nonmigratory life-history types of Onchorhynchus mykiss (steelhead and rainbow trout, respectively), we have dissected the genetic architecture of the complex physiological and morphological transformation that occurs immediately prior to seaward migration (termed smoltification). Quantitative trait loci (QTL) analyses were used to identify the number, effects, and genomic location of loci associated with smoltification-related traits, including growth and condition factor, body coloration, morphology, and osmoregulatory enzymes during the smoltification period. Genetic analyses revealed numerous QTL, but one locus in particular is associated with multiple traits in single and joint analyses. Dissecting the genetic architecture of this highly complex trait has profound implications for understanding the genetic and evolutionary basis of life-history diversity within and among migratory fishes.'


(in reply to egg sac)
Post #: 117
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/14/2008 1:20:20 PM   
Wild John


Posts: 139
Joined: 5/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heatsink

'The timing and propensity for migration between fresh- and seawater is a key theme in the diversity of life histories within the salmonid fishes. Across salmonid species, life-history strategies range from wholly freshwater-resident populations, to migratory and nonmigratory variation within populations, to populations and species that are primarily migratory. Despite the central theme of migration to the evolution of these fishes, the genetic architecture of migration-related processes is poorly understood. Using a genetic cross of clonal lines derived from migratory and nonmigratory life-history types of Onchorhynchus mykiss (steelhead and rainbow trout, respectively), we have dissected the genetic architecture of the complex physiological and morphological transformation that occurs immediately prior to seaward migration (termed smoltification). Quantitative trait loci (QTL) analyses were used to identify the number, effects, and genomic location of loci associated with smoltification-related traits, including growth and condition factor, body coloration, morphology, and osmoregulatory enzymes during the smoltification period. Genetic analyses revealed numerous QTL, but one locus in particular is associated with multiple traits in single and joint analyses. Dissecting the genetic architecture of this highly complex trait has profound implications for understanding the genetic and evolutionary basis of life-history diversity within and among migratory fishes.'




Ummmm, what he said!

(in reply to heatsink)
Post #: 118
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