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RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 10:56:16 AM   
caddisx

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Interesting topic!!! So to clarify any Salmoninae spp. within the great lakes system is potamodromous.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 31
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 11:11:20 AM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caddisx

Interesting topic!!! So to clarify any Salmoninae spp. within the great lakes system is potamodromous.


any fish in the G.L. would be potamodromous...
fish that migrate to spawn, entirely in freshwater...

(in reply to caddisx)
Post #: 32
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 11:33:51 AM   
Stillhead


Posts: 2889
Joined: 12/19/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

quote:

ORIGINAL: dano


So by your reasoning, the salmon in Lake Ontario are not really salmon because by definition, salmon are an anadromous fish.
Do I have that right?


not all salmon are anadromous...
landlocked salmon won't go to salt, even if unobstructed...

the chinook and coho in the G.L. are not a native fish... they were orignialy introduced to destory alewifes in MI in the late 60s...

man has created a "landlocked chinook" in the G.L.
this is not an anadromous fish... rather a potamodromos fish

???




I can't believe I'm going to get into this.  But couldn't you also say

"man has created a "landlocked STEELHEAD" in the G.L.
this is not an anadromous fish... rather a potamodromos fish"



woo kares

< Message edited by Stillhead -- 11/29/2007 11:35:01 AM >

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 33
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 11:48:04 AM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 6211
Status: online 		any fish in the G.L. would be potamodromous...
fish that migrate to spawn, entirely in freshwater...
 
So, we have Potheads?

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(in reply to Stillhead)
Post #: 34
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 12:16:43 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

 
So, we have Potheads?



EXACTLY!!!

actually made me laugh out loud...

(in reply to spoonchucker)
Post #: 35
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 12:20:08 PM   
wishfishin

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL
actually made me laugh out loud...


Me too.  Good one, Spoonchucker.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 36
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 12:29:09 PM   
LDD

 

Posts: 1076
Joined: 5/20/2004
Status: online 		You say tomatoe, I say to-mat-o.....

(in reply to Stillhead)
Post #: 37
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 12:52:02 PM   
Stillhead


Posts: 2889
Joined: 12/19/2003
Status: offline 		what are  Poth-eads?  

(in reply to LDD)
Post #: 38
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 1:01:05 PM   
anadromous

 

Posts: 2117
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline 		Are you Gurus puppets, do you idolize him or do you you really have your own identity...just curious why you guys seem to steal his gig. He is kind of funny when he does it but it seems some how pathetic when others steal his thunder...but then again,woo kares duUds.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stillhead

woo kAres dUuds

tHarE jIst fIss

(in reply to Stillhead)
Post #: 39
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 1:05:58 PM   
Stillhead


Posts: 2889
Joined: 12/19/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anadromous

Are you Gurus puppets, do you idolize him or do you you really have your own identity...just curious why you guys seem to steal his gig. He is kind of funny when he does it but it seems some how pathetic when others steal his thunder...but then again,woo kares duUds.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stillhead

woo kAres dUuds

tHarE jIst fIss




he iS My hErO DuUd

woo kAreS wHat yOu ThInK DuUd

tHare JiSt woRds

Jist DuM wOrds

(in reply to anadromous)
Post #: 40
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 1:09:02 PM   
wishfishin

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: online 		smal wIrds tu, DuUd

(in reply to Stillhead)
Post #: 41
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 1:36:10 PM   
flatfifth

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 10/4/2004
Status: offline 		"The rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss), also called the redband trout, is a species of salmonid native to tributaries of the Pacific Ocean in Asia and North America as well as much of the central, western, eastern, and especially the northern portions of the United States. The ocean going (anadromous) form (including those returning for spawning) are known as steelhead, or ocean trout (Australia).

The rainbow trout are unusual in that there are two forms which sometimes share the same habitat. The anadromous form called "steelhead" migrate to the ocean, though they must return to fresh water to reproduce.
The freshwater form is called "rainbow trout", based on the broad red band along their sides. Steelhead are exactly the same species as rainbow trout. However, the difference is anadromy. After going to sea, their color changes, including loss of the red band. They stay at sea for 1-4 years, and return to fresh water to spawn. Rainbows stay in fresh water their whole lives."

The above is from Wikipedia. 

No matter what you call them (rainbow or steelhead,) these are the SAME fish species.  Different races have adapted to different environments.  These strains or races look and behave differently.   To my way of thinking, they are all Rainbows.  To others, they could all be Steelhead.  There is no scientific distinction between them, they are all Oncorhynchus mykiss you can cross breed all the sub strains.  

People are all Homo sapiens.  The species by most accounts originated in Africa.  The first Homo sapiens were more than likely dark skinned, due to the need for extra pigmentation for protection from the sun.  As the species migrated from the African continent, different pigmentation and environmental adaptations occurred.    These adaptations in no way changed the species.   We may look different, but we, like all the strains of the Rainbow (Steelhead), are all the same. 



(in reply to dano)
Post #: 42
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 2:27:41 PM   
LDD

 

Posts: 1076
Joined: 5/20/2004
Status: online 		Well according to wikipedia, and I don't know that the source is all that solid, the difference is actually in the change that happens in the fish (ie...the losing of the features of a river bow and the gaining of the "silver bullet" features of a true Steelhead.)  So, we have fish that are genetically the same, undergo the same changes, undertake the same type of migration, but don't have the salt water.  C'mon they're steelies...

As far as the guru thing...really, nobody does it as well as he does.  Some of those letter combinations are really just perfect.  Everyone else has a pattern and guru has the purity of randomness in his writing.  He's the real deal.

(in reply to flatfifth)
Post #: 43
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 2:43:29 PM   
caddisx

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Just some links:

http://cattaraugusfishery2.tripod.com/fish/fishhistory.html
http://cattaraugusfishery2.tripod.com/fish/fish.html

http://www.steelheadquarters.com/the_quarry.htm

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/fisheries/research/erietribs2004/000index.htm

So essentially who knows what we are catching.  Maybe a promotion to practice catch and release, or destory the mutts of adventure capitalism!!! hahaha 

< Message edited by caddisx -- 11/29/2007 2:49:07 PM >

(in reply to LDD)
Post #: 44
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 2:45:44 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 6211
Status: online 		Anadromous,

For the same reasons that folks use phrases "DOH", and "Git er Done". We find some humor in his posts, and expand that by injecting our own humor into a familiar form

We have taken an episode of South Park involving Immigrants writing an essay on "The Old Man and The Sea" and used it as a vehicle for our own humor. An example:

De man chase de deer.

But de man could not catch de deer.

So de man could not go chase de feesh.

In other words, " hoo KaRes"  have fun when you can.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

(in reply to LDD)
Post #: 45
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 2:47:35 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		BUT...

it is what defines a steelhead... a life cycle that includes salt...


Rainbow trout and steelhead are the same species of fish; the two names reflect two distinct life history patterns. The name rainbow trout is used for the non-anadromous life history. Rainbow trout do not leave the stream to go to the ocean. They spend their entire life in the stream. The name steelhead refers to the anadromous life history described above.

Anadromous steelhead and resident rainbow trout did not arise from two distinct evolutionary lines. There is a close genetic and taxonomic relationship between these two forms. Anadromous forms of the trout can convert to resident populations when drought events or damming of rivers blocks their access to the ocean. Conversely, resident trout populations can become anadromous if ocean access becomes available. It is typical to have both life history patterns occurring in the same stream. In fact, resident and anadromous parents can produce offspring of both varieties. It has been speculated that there is a food availability related trigger which determines whether a particular fish emigrates to the ocean or remains in the stream. It may be that if there is abundant food in the stream and a fish is growing at a rapid rate, it will remain in the stream. If food is limited and growth is slow, the fish will have a tendency to emigrate.

This dual life history pattern of steelhead and rainbow trout makes the species more adaptable to changing environmental conditions. At the southern most limits of steelhead distribution this is particularly important due to unstable, variable climatic and hydrographic conditions.

Source: Steelhead Restoration and Management Plan for California, by Dennis McEwan and Terry Jackson, CA Department of Fish and Game


We have very large resident rainbows...
also... what about summer and winter runs??? this is a unique characteristic of steelhead... something lacking/impossible in the G.L....

< Message edited by KJH807 -- 11/29/2007 3:03:04 PM >

(in reply to LDD)
Post #: 46
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 3:07:35 PM   
caddisx

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		The sad thing is, erie stocked steelhead are a mutt, a mix of different strains of mykiss which have no life history other than its own success. They are a science project for the PFBC and has been for years which is an economic jugernaut for the region.  The PFBC, New York and Ohio hatcheries all have different steelhead mutts. The states don't even know what they have other than a species of Oncorhynchus. Which, if the erie stocked steelhead were classifed, it would be a subspecies of mykiss, which is truly a domesticated rainbow trout.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 47
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 3:11:00 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		i'm not saying i have any idea what we catch... i just know that they are not steelhead...
BUT... i am still waiting for someone to prove me wrong...


(in reply to caddisx)
Post #: 48
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 3:26:01 PM   
spoonchucker


Posts: 6211
Status: online 		Some of them are big, some are bigger. Some are pretty, some are dark and nasty. They fight good when not too cold, or old. They taste good to some, but not to others.

Call-em whatever you want. I'm gonna go catch some more of those Lake Run Potheaded Steelbows, tomorrow.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 49
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 3:28:22 PM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		I don't think many people really care KJH.  Infact, hmmm maybe like 99.99%.  There might be some duud out there that it just having a nervous breakdown, I don't know.

At what point did the eggs from a REAL steelhead become a lake run.  Say .. I don't know, skams were brought here 30 some years ago.  So the eggs were transported, the smolts were raised, stocked, then headed for the lake.  At what did they become lake runs??  Once they hit the FRESH water lake?   What if I transported some salt water from the pacific and dumped it in Walnut while the smolts were heading out.  Them steelhead now or must the salt exist through their life in the lake?  How about just some table salt or does it need to be the real deal? 

Well anyway, they originated from steelhead so my incorrect a§§ will continue to call them such.

This is silly..

(in reply to spoonchucker)
Post #: 50
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 3:29:43 PM   
caddisx

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		No they are steelhead by common name only b/c of genes (many different strains), they are different by definition, because the erie steelhead are potamodromous and not anadromous which defines "steelhead".  And i quote they are "Potheads", a form of rainbow trout.
Oncorhynchus mykiss potheadii

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 51
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 3:34:25 PM   
carpin05

 

Posts: 454
Joined: 5/30/2005
Status: online 		Somebody please SHOOT ME  go catch the damn things and have some fun!!!!!

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 52
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 3:43:17 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

I don't think many people really care KJH.  Infact, hmmm maybe like 99.99%.  There might be some duud out there that it just having a nervous breakdown, I don't know.

At what point did the eggs from a REAL steelhead become a lake run.  Say .. I don't know, skams were brought here 30 some years ago.  So the eggs were transported, the smolts were raised, stocked, then headed for the lake.  At what did they become lake runs??  Once they hit the FRESH water lake?   What if I transported some salt water from the pacific and dumped it in Walnut while the smolts were heading out.  Them steelhead now or must the salt exist through their life in the lake?  How about just some table salt or does it need to be the real deal? 

Well anyway, they originated from steelhead so my incorrect a§§ will continue to call them such.

This is silly..



then don't read the thread...

a tablespoon of salt is an absurd comment...

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 53
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 3:55:01 PM   
SilverKype

 

Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		a tablespoon of salt is an absurd comment...

Then don't read it.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 54
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 4:02:46 PM   
steelstalker

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 10/14/2004
Status: offline 		IMO, the whole they're not steelhead because they don't go to salt is more of a technicality then anything else. We have a unique situation where we have bodies of water large enough to support anadromous fish who don't care what kiind of water they're living in just as long as it supports they're needs. Another unique situation regarding steelhead is the occurence of steelies in the South American Atlantic, surely they can't be true steelhead if they live in the Atlantic Ocean and not the Pacific? I think they're steelhead. I'm sure that if you asked a biologist, and I have a line into someone deeply involved in managing the lake run fishery for the Salmon River, they would tell you that it is the physiological changes associated with these fish moving into a large body of water, rather than it's mineral content, that makes them steelhead.

Here is an online dictionary definition of anadromous that contests the salt issue:

anadromous
a. ascending, especially of fish that ascend rivers to spawn.

A true greek translation of anadromous is:

running upward

So there it is, true translation of the word anadromous has nothing to do with the ocean or any sea, it just means that they ascend, in this case to spawn.

(in reply to caddisx)
Post #: 55
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 4:17:58 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

a tablespoon of salt is an absurd comment...

Then don't read it.


very mature...




Migratory fish are classified according to the following scheme:
  1. diadromous fish travel between salt and fresh water. (Greek: 'Dia' is between) There are three types of diadromous fish:
    • anadromous fish live in the sea mostly, breed in fresh water (Greek: 'Ana' is up; The noun is "anadromy")
    • catadromous fish live in fresh water, breed in the sea (Greek: 'Cata' is down)
    • amphidromous fish move between fresh and salt water during some part of life cycle, but not for breeding (Greek: 'Amphi' is both)

  2. potamodromous fish migrate within fresh water only. (Greek: 'Potamos' is river)
  3. oceanodromous fish migrate within salt water only. (Greek: 'Oceanos' is ocean)


i have fished for rainbows that migrate from lakes into feeder streams... no one even thinks to call them steelhead
what makes the G.L. any different???

< Message edited by KJH807 -- 11/29/2007 4:19:39 PM >

(in reply to SilverKype)
Post #: 56
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 4:24:30 PM   
steelstalker

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 10/14/2004
Status: offline 		You're still missing my point that the tru translation of anadromous has nothing to do with saltwater, the sea, or any ocean. You wanted proof that steelhead don't have to run into saltwater to be classified as anadromous and there it is. Anadroumous means to run upward. Great Lakes steelhead run up rivers. Therefore Great Lakes Steelhead are anadromous to the very the most true meaning of the word. Seems to me like your out of rope in this tug of war.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 57
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 4:53:15 PM   
KJH807


Posts: 1463
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		the "true translation" to greek may be one thing...
but in the english language as used to describe fish migration...

anadromous fish are a type of diadromous fish

diadromous fish travel between salt and fresh water. (Greek: 'Dia' is between)
----- below are the 3 types that live in BETWEEN fresh and salt


anadromous fish live in the sea mostly, breed in fresh water (Greek: 'Ana' is up)
---- these fish move UP from the ocean to spawn in freshwater

catadromous fish live in fresh water, breed in the sea (Greek: 'Cata' is down)
---- these fish move DOWN from fresh to spawn in the sea

amphidromous fish move between fresh and salt water during some part of life cycle, but not for breeding (Greek: 'Amphi' is both)
---- these fish can live in BOTH... and water type is not related to spawning

< Message edited by KJH807 -- 11/29/2007 4:57:37 PM >

(in reply to steelstalker)
Post #: 58
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 5:47:39 PM   
MackJ


Posts: 349
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: online 		Hmmm.  I think they are both Steelhead, one ana-, the other pota-

Steelhead: The Potamodromous Strain

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 59
RE: tell me about steelhead - 11/29/2007 5:51:21 PM   
MackJ


Posts: 349
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

i have fished for rainbows that migrate from lakes into feeder streams... no one even thinks to call them steelhead
what makes the G.L. any different???


I would say the "G" part makes them different.  They are freshwater seas.

(in reply to KJH807)
Post #: 60
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