RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY?????

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 10/31/2009 8:46:36 PM

KJH807

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quote:

ORIGINAL: troutslammer

why wouldn't there be any natural reproduction in the tribs ?

there is a whole list of reasons
use the search feature

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 10/31/2009 8:56:02 PM

norm289

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Joined: 2/24/2009
From: Homer City, PA
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There is very limited natural reproduction. How come people can't accept that fact? Alot of people tell others to read Nagy's book, his book will tell you. Even lists some of the sources so people can find the proof if they feel they need to see it.

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Post #: 32

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 10/31/2009 10:27:30 PM

FiveMilePete

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Naturally reproduced smolts. I've caught one or two, or more every year I've fished. There aren't many, but they do exist.

(in reply to hookedonsteels)

Post #: 33

RE: Catching smolts - 10/31/2009 10:36:59 PM

FiveMilePete

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I think he was being facetious. I hope, anyway.

(in reply to anadromous)

Post #: 34

RE: Catching smolts - 10/31/2009 11:55:24 PM

cp13

Posts: 517
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From: Erie, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FiveMilePete

I think he was being facetious. I hope, anyway.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't. Think about it... Those mutt hatchery fish? Makes sense to me but I'm not saying it's impossible because I've caught some really small smolts (3.5" - 5") on two East side tributaries..

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Post #: 35

RE: Catching smolts - 11/1/2009 1:05:51 AM

PACOFRANSICO

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I took my brother in law to see the fish in godfrey run on coloumbus day and there was smolts in the creek with the mature steel. I don't if know if they were browns or steel smolts? But there wer 6 inchers swimmin up the creek.

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/1/2009 5:31:09 AM

dano

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quote:

ORIGINAL: norm289

There is very limited natural reproduction. How come people can't accept that fact? Alot of people tell others to read Nagy's book, his book will tell you. Even lists some of the sources so people can find the proof if they feel they need to see it.

You got it, Norm.
Some tribs are better than others.
But again, natural reproduction in Erie is still very,very limited.

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Post #: 37

RE: Catching smolts - 11/1/2009 6:21:59 AM

dano

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anadromous

Thats the size Dano...Flyfishindave and I rationalized that they may well be wild.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dano

If you're catching small smolts, there's a good chance it's wild.
Here's one a guy caught this past week.

Technically, its a parr. Not a smolt. My mistake.
Taken on 20-Mile Creek on 10/29/09. Approximately 5 inches.

< Message edited by dano -- 11/1/2009 6:33:44 AM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Catching smolts - 11/1/2009 6:41:51 AM

BIGHEAD

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Now that looks like it would be GREAT BAIT Wish I had a few dozen of them for the spring

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Post #: 39

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/1/2009 6:45:52 AM

dano

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Penn. Kev

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one....

SOME SMOLTS WERE STOCKED IN THE FALL!!!!!!!!!

My understanding of the situation is that some were stocked in the fall to determine how earlier stocking of smolts impacts the return of mature fish. (Possibly better returns)

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but Elk, Walnut, etc. are not going to suddenly start churning out wild fish in any significant numbers.

That is all.

I don't think anyone is talking about significant numbers.
1.1 million stocked vs. the half dozen 4-5 inch wild parr I've seen caught on the eastside this past Thursday absolutely doesn't equate to significant numbers.
With the 0-14% wild population that Biologist Murray documented in the 90's and this past cool Summer, maybe this is a high percentage survival year.
Of course, only 10-15% of those parr will make it to adulthood.

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Post #: 40

RE: Catching smolts - 11/1/2009 8:29:31 AM

pxatim

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dano

quote:

ORIGINAL: anadromous

Thats the size Dano...Flyfishindave and I rationalized that they may well be wild.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dano

If you're catching small smolts, there's a good chance it's wild.
Here's one a guy caught this past week.

Technically, its a parr. Not a smolt. My mistake.
Taken on 20-Mile Creek on 10/29/09. Approximately 5 inches.

Skip... now you can get your steel fix... you don't have to go to the mountains for wild brookies anymore... Hit the tribs in search of the all elusive wild steelbow. I swear the taste teh same as wild brookies

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Post #: 41

RE: Catching smolts - 11/1/2009 8:37:53 AM

dano

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finger snacks

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Post #: 42

RE: Catching smolts - 11/1/2009 12:34:02 PM

bigsteelie

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I was fishing 20 mile on Tuesday October 27 floating single eggs and these parr/smolts would not pass up the opportunity to smack my single egg. Probably caught about half a dozen that day and it got kind of annoying so I moved on and found a new hole.

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Post #: 43

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/1/2009 4:18:57 PM

FiveMilePete

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Penn. Kev

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one....

SOME SMOLTS WERE STOCKED IN THE FALL!!!!!!!!!

My understanding of the situation is that some were stocked in the fall to determine how earlier stocking of smolts impacts the return of mature fish. (Possibly better returns)

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but Elk, Walnut, etc. are not going to suddenly start churning out wild fish in any significant numbers.

That is all.

The ones I have caught were all less than 4". Smolts aren't stocked that small. And some were in creeks that aren't even stocked, much less in the fall. One day late last fall I caught six in the same pool, one on a streamer just slightly smaller than it was.

See Nagy's Steelhead Guide.

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one. There is a miniscule amount of natural repro. There was 40 years ago. Why wouldn't there be some now?

That is all.

< Message edited by FiveMilePete -- 11/1/2009 4:21:40 PM >

(in reply to Penn. Kev)

Post #: 44

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/1/2009 7:03:20 PM

Mr. Twister

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I heard from a guy two weeks ago that 20 mile and 16 mile where stocked with smolts. My dada caught one that day. Don't kno if they really stock or not. i agree that they could b natural though. Last time i was up i stopped at trout run to look at the feesh. and their where a ton of smolts in their.

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Post #: 45

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/1/2009 11:06:17 PM

16506fish

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untrue

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Post #: 46

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 8:41:11 AM

DJ2007

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From: Pittsburgh
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FiveMilePete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Penn. Kev

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one....

SOME SMOLTS WERE STOCKED IN THE FALL!!!!!!!!!

My understanding of the situation is that some were stocked in the fall to determine how earlier stocking of smolts impacts the return of mature fish. (Possibly better returns)

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but Elk, Walnut, etc. are not going to suddenly start churning out wild fish in any significant numbers.

That is all.

The ones I have caught were all less than 4". Smolts aren't stocked that small. And some were in creeks that aren't even stocked, much less in the fall. One day late last fall I caught six in the same pool, one on a streamer just slightly smaller than it was.

See Nagy's Steelhead Guide.

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one. There is a miniscule amount of natural repro. There was 40 years ago. Why wouldn't there be some now?

That is all.

I agree, Why would they stock them in trout run below the fall? They wont make it up the fall and will then move to the lake and get eaten. Big waste of resources if they did stock them there. Also there a lot smaller than the smolts that are regularly stocked. The picture i posted of trout looks just the the on that was caught, only thousands of them were there.

(in reply to FiveMilePete)

Post #: 47

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 9:31:24 AM

Penn. Kev

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These streams have not become wild trout streams in the last 40 years and won't become wild trout streams in the next 40 years. Compared to even the worst put-and-take streams in PA, the habitat is horrible. Almost any fairly clean stream can support trout in the fall, winter, and spring. But in the summer, the Erie tribs are awful. Not to mention that the suitable spawning gravel that exists gets rearranged during virtually every high-water event. I am certain that many redds get obliterated before the fry even come close to hatching from the eggs.

I admire everyone's wishfull thinking, but even in a "good" year for reproduction, the numbers of smolts we are currently seeing would still be outrageously high. Everyone, it would seem, is catching many of them. Also, we have had other "good" years in recent memory and none have produced a large spike in the number of wild smolts like we are seeing right now.

And why are they so small??? BECAUSE THEY WERE STOCKED EARLY!!!! If they were stocked in the spring they would have had a few more months of being pumped full of pellets so that they could reach their normal size. Also, if they were wild, why hadn't these smolts been noticed by the early bird anglers who hit the tribs at the end of Aug. and beginning of Sept.? If they were stream-born they would have been there at that time.

Again, the most logical explanation is the correct one. SMOLTS WERE STOCKED IN THE FALL!

It is great that everyone wants to see more wild fish, but the Erie tribs are not where we are going to see it happen.

Oh, yeah, one other thing.....

I talked with multiple streamside residents who knew the stocking had occured.

(in reply to FiveMilePete)

Post #: 48

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 9:40:28 AM

BrookTrout26

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I know of two streams that "100% for sure" support/ and have natural reproduction and are part of the Lake Erie watershed. I'm also pretty sure that there may be a few others too.

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Post #: 49

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 9:45:47 AM

Porktown

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How would you expect natural reproduction, when every Spring, "steelhead anglers" snag the mating fish off of their redds?

This sounds like stocking (or flooding of the hatcheries) to me. Sounds like way too many little guys to be naturally reproduced. I couldn't see them naturally reporducing on Trout Run, without the hatcheries knowing about it. It would be nice if it is natural reproduction, but highly doubt it.

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Post #: 50

RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 11:13:59 AM

JEB

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Why doesn't the PAFBC fin clip the Steelbow smolts to begin with. That would answer everyones questions very simply. They did it on the browns ? I nknow theres less of them, but still they should do it.

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 2:08:21 PM

BrookTrout26

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I found an older article I think from 2002.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B984D-4VJ59FM-G&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1074538233&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=859ba9c5eb41320cbf1052c24c4fd847

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 3:28:40 PM

cp13

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From: Erie, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB

Why doesn't the PAFBC fin clip the Steelbow smolts to begin with. That would answer everyones questions very simply. They did it on the browns ? I nknow theres less of them, but still they should do it.

I always wondered why we didn't do anything to be able to distinguish them, not necessarily from wild fish, but from other state's stocking programs fish...

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 6:18:55 PM

FiveMilePete

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrookTrout26

I found an older article I think from 2002.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B984D-4VJ59FM-G&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1074538233&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=859ba9c5eb41320cbf1052c24c4fd847

To quote this article:
"The relative contribution of wild steelhead to Pennsylvania spawning runs was minimal in all three streams for both seasons. "

MINIMAL

Not non-existent.

Noone ever said that the tribs were becoming wild trout streams. Just that there was some natural repro. Why is that so hard to believe?
Where I've caught smolts, there definitely was no stocking, unless they
did the stocking by helicopter.

Another quote:

“Recruitment” from the survival of naturally reproduced fry and smolts in the Pennsylvania tributaries does exist but is limited primarily by summer tributary temperatures. High water temperatures can be lethal to juvenile steelhead due to poor stream canopy (that helps to reduce tributary temperatures), low base flows in the summer months as well as limited cold spring sources. Water quality and aquatic food sources also may be limiting factors to juvenile survival.

John Nagy. "DOES EXIST"

< Message edited by FiveMilePete -- 11/2/2009 7:27:19 PM >

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 9:09:21 PM

Ironhed

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cp13

quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB

Why doesn't the PAFBC fin clip the Steelbow smolts to begin with. That would answer everyones questions very simply. They did it on the browns ? I nknow theres less of them, but still they should do it.

I always wondered why we didn't do anything to be able to distinguish them, not necessarily from wild fish, but from other state's stocking programs fish...

We(PA) did do something...We(PA) didn't clip them.
Ohio does not either.
Michigan, New York and Ontario clip their fins. Which fin is clipped varies from year to year to determine origin and age classes.

One that has me stumped...we caught a few fish this fall with BOTH pec fins clipped. The chart I have does not show any state/province clipping both.
I'm guessing some co-op hatchery did this.?.

Ironhed

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 9:24:20 PM

spoonchucker

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Ken,

I believe the last time I spoke with him, Chuck said they were going to start clipping. Thought it was last year, but may not start till this year.

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 9:26:06 PM

PeteM

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I caught a small brown on 20mi. yesterday.

All of the big steel just sat in the seam laughing at me.

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 11:19:09 PM

dano

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Ken, you got me on that one.
Besides NY Skams, Ontario was the last to clip RP's in '06'. There were some in Mich and Ontario RP clips in '05'. Maybe a hatchery worker was having a bad day.

FYI
Some stuff I gathered.

Only the wild-origin steelhead stocked by Ontario received fin clips in 2006. They received left pectoral fin clips prior to release. No other agencies stocked any fin-clipped steelhead in 2006

I've caught 2 of these this year in NY that were identified by a DEC biologist. Those RP clipped fish made up only .02% of the total stocked fish contributed by Canada and USA in '06'.
The odds of catching two in NY must be astronomical. I did go out and play the lottery.

I also heard of coded tags in the near future, possibly a Nagy article.

Also, right now a study is being conducted at Bowling Green University through the Ohio Sea grant where raceway water samples were taken. Then fish and are being harvested (Spring and Fall) from each tributary of Lake Erie to study the calcium makeup of the otoliths (ears tones). They believe that by studying the ear stone calcium polymorph, they can quickly pinpoint a steelhead to the hatchery or stream it was raised in.
The original study was to find out how raceways were effecting the balance and orientation of hatchery raised fingerlings which led to the otoliths findings.
Anyone else find this interesting? Or am I a nerd?

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/2/2009 11:49:44 PM

genieman77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dano
findings.
Anyone else find this interesting? Or am I a nerd?

Yes and yes

BTW, a friend and I were just talking about ear stone calcium polymorphs the other day over lunch.
They're a little crunchy and salty tasting, and you need a mess of 'em to make a meal, but they're not bad

..L.T.A.

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RE: Catching smolts OCT 30 WHY????? - 11/3/2009 12:08:01 PM

Ironhed

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dano

Ken, you got me on that one.
Besides NY Skams, Ontario was the last to clip RP's in '06'. There were some in Mich and Ontario RP clips in '05'. Maybe a hatchery worker was having a bad day.

FYI
Some stuff I gathered.

Only the wild-origin steelhead stocked by Ontario received fin clips in 2006. They received left pectoral fin clips prior to release. No other agencies stocked any fin-clipped steelhead in 2006

I've caught 2 of these this year in NY that were identified by a DEC biologist. Those RP clipped fish made up only .02% of the total stocked fish contributed by Canada and USA in '06'.
The odds of catching two in NY must be astronomical. I did go out and play the lottery.

I also heard of coded tags in the near future, possibly a Nagy article.

Also, right now a study is being conducted at Bowling Green University through the Ohio Sea grant where raceway water samples were taken. Then fish and are being harvested (Spring and Fall) from each tributary of Lake Erie to study the calcium makeup of the otoliths (ears tones). They believe that by studying the ear stone calcium polymorph, they can quickly pinpoint a steelhead to the hatchery or stream it was raised in.
The original study was to find out how raceways were effecting the balance and orientation of hatchery raised fingerlings which led to the otoliths findings.
Anyone else find this interesting? Or am I a nerd?

Yep, that's the same info I have Dano.
And, I find it very interesting also.

On a side note, a few years ago, I had a guest catch 6 fish out of one run, all having RP's clipped. At the time, they were of New York origin.

Ironhed

< Message edited by Ironhed -- 11/3/2009 12:11:46 PM >

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