Goose/Dove scenario (Full Version)

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Johnny_Johnson -> Goose/Dove scenario (9/30/2009 11:11:26 AM)

A guy goes goose hunting on a new lake for the first time.  He gets there around noon with a pal and nobody else is around.  As the day goes by, no geese, but a lot of shooting starts on the treed end of the lake.  Apparently the lake is a dove hunting hot spot, and with all the shooting the geese have left the county.

After sitting there for hours without seeing a single goose, a dove flies right up the pipeline through the middle of the decoys, and one guy shoots it.

After cleaning up the decoys, they paddle their way back across the lake to the car and a guy walks over and asks how they did.  They tell him they only got one dove, but where hoping for geese. 

The man then confesses to being a game warden and asks to see the dove.  Upon inspection of the dove (which is pretty beat up due to the HELL the hunters had to go through to find it in the bushes) he asks to see their shells and check their guns.

Goose hunting....12 guages with BB and T shot.

Anyone wanna guess how it played out?





rsquared -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (9/30/2009 11:32:18 AM)

Well, a quick check of the Federal and State regulations mentions no specific maximum size limit on shot for doves. AT LEAST THAT I COULD FIND WITH A QUICK CHECK. As long as their ammo was in compliance for goose hunting, it should be in compliance for dove hunting.

And doves are the only migratory game bird that can be completely field dressed before transporting so the condition of the dove shouldn't matter.

My guess is it played out with them splitting one dove for dinner.




Hummer82 -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (9/30/2009 11:45:07 AM)

No problems that I see if your using steel.



Johnny_Johnson -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (9/30/2009 12:27:31 PM)

And the answer is.....Ticket.

PA law only allows the use of "Fine Shot" for dove because dove is NOT a migratory game bird.  It is considered a small game animal.

When I asked the officer why I had to buy a "migratory bird" license to hunt them, he informed me that the license had nothing to do with PA game laws and was added by another agency altogether.

Took the case to court.

Called Remington and asked them for their definition of "fine shot."  They informed me that anything not a slug or single projectile would fit the classification of fine shot.  Unfortunately, I didn't get that in writing and when I presented it to the judge it was thrown out as "hearsay". 

Ending....$150 fine with court costs and a guilty verdict.

Exact words from judge, which I will never forget..."I hereby find you guilty because nobody else has ever had a problem with this law."

That's why I haven't bought a hunting license for the past 4 years.



rsquared -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (9/30/2009 12:45:00 PM)

Well, that's odd, because the only mention of dove hunting in the PA digest is under the Waterfowl/Migratory bird section.  No mention of it under small game regulations.  Additionally, any dove hunting information is presented with the Migratory Bird/Waterfowl brochure.  If dove used to be listed under the small game regulations in the digest, then it would be clear that there would be maximum size limits on the shot. 

Unless it was listed differently when you were cited 5 years ago, the reason and logic, or lack thereof, used by the WCO and the judge is mind numbing. 



fishin coyote -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (9/30/2009 12:56:01 PM)

Ending....$150 fine with court costs and a guilty verdict.

Exact words from judge, which I will never forget..."I hereby find you guilty because nobody else has ever had a problem with this law."

That's why I haven't bought a hunting license for the past 4 years

JJ,
The WCO's and local justice are almost always going to agree.
Thats why there is an appeal process. you should've used it
Mike



Johnny_Johnson -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (9/30/2009 2:22:05 PM)

The whole thing was a sham.  The GC was there half an hour before the case eating donuts with the judge.  There was actually a couple state troopers in the court room and they came up to me afterward and told us it was a crock and we should appeal. 

They only went after cash, IMO, because they knew it was a sham.  If they had gone after more like my license or ability to carry firearms, then they know I would've appealed.  The only reason we didn't was because when we factored in lawyer costs and lost work time to appeal, it was cheaper just to pay it. 

Game commissioner's name was Kendall, and he's a ****.  It was in the New castle area.



Johnny_Johnson -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (9/30/2009 2:25:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rsquared

Unless it was listed differently when you were cited 5 years ago, the reason and logic, or lack thereof, used by the WCO and the judge is mind numbing. 


I haven't bought a license or been arrested for it lately, so I can't tell you for sure if it's changed.  However, I can tell you that I was unable to find anything about dove hunting besides I believe seasons and bag limits in my book.  All of the extra stuff came with the additional stamp.

Trust me, my dad about had a heart attack in the court room from screaming at the GCs and the judge.  I really thought they were gonna toss him out or worse.



Hummer82 -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/1/2009 12:16:59 PM)

Uh--Dove season is stated in the PA MIGRATORY GAME BIRD HUNTING BROCHURE.  I'm sure that doves are a migratory bird.  I guess your court case was one of those nighmares I hope I will never find myself in.  I beleive you would of won with an appeal, but who the heck has that kind of money to drag it on over a dove.  Don't let this get you down..buy a license and hunt and enjoy yourself.



MuskyMastr -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/1/2009 3:51:39 PM)

This wco will be at our next club meeting. I will ask him about it.



heyiknowyou -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/5/2009 9:49:09 AM)

i didnt realize there was a shot size limit for doves... that's crazy. Shoulda used T shot and just dusted the **** thing.

we've had gco's go through our vehicles before searching for a single lead shot shell to bust us for while hunting geese during dove season. opened the doors and told them to "have fun" because we had a truck full of gear and weren't going to take it out so they could search it... if they wanted it that bad, they could do it themselves.



Hummer82 -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/6/2009 12:31:16 PM)

So basically your telling me your not allowed to have lead in your vehicle while your hunting waterfowl....That doesn't sound right.  I can imagine that on the first day of early season for geese and doves, many hunters go from geese to doves by just changing ammo by going back to there vehicle.  I know carrying lead while hunting waterfowl is not allowed, of coarse we hear all kinds of WCO stories.  



heyiknowyou -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/6/2009 1:46:31 PM)

i'm telling you what happened to us, thats it. Not stating a law or quoting a law.

I use a different gun for geese than I do for dove and usually have time to go home and switch everything out so it doesnt affect me either way



rsquared -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/6/2009 1:50:01 PM)

I'm having trouble with that one too. Not trouble with believing it happened to you, but trouble believing that the WCO can do that. And trouble believing that it would be a violation of any law if indeed you did have lead shot in your vehicle and not on your person.

I seem to remember though (not at all sure if I'm right) hearing that a WCO has much, much broader search powers than police do.

Maybe Dr. Trout can e mail this one to his WCO buddy and get his take on this.



BIGSLICK -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/6/2009 6:40:35 PM)

That's total BS....I have the Migratory Bird book right in front of me and the only thing it says is that it is unlawful to shoot any shot larger then "T"...Nothing about shooting doves with a certain size shot...GCO's make stuff up half the time I believe....I wish they would have shown you where in the laws it states that you can't use BB shot for doves...



Hummer82 -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/6/2009 9:22:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heyiknowyou

i'm telling you what happened to us, thats it. Not stating a law or quoting a law.

I use a different gun for geese than I do for dove and usually have time to go home and switch everything out so it doesnt affect me either way


Sorry, I didn't mean it that way.  Just a little frustrated at some WCOs.  Most in erie are pretty good guys.  I once had a WCO attempt to give a violation on the 8 bird early goose.  The guy had 6 one him.  My buddy reminded the WCO(not nicely) that the limit changed two years prior(this was a couple years ago)... And why do they always have to check on you when its "go time" on opening day.

Sorry Again, just ranting



BIGSLICK -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/6/2009 11:23:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hummer82

And why do they always have to check on you when its "go time" on opening day.



Ummm..Yeah....We had one walk out into our spread when we were trying to work birds to check all of us...What an arsehole....



Johnny_Johnson -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/7/2009 8:51:59 AM)

After he notified us he was going to have to fine us, he allowed us to "search our vehicle and clothing in case we had legal dove shot."  I was young and dumb at the time, but after talking to my dad I quickly realized that if I had found some I would've been tagged for lead shot while hunting for geese as well.

It was one giant party let me tell ya.






Free Spirit -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/7/2009 9:10:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsquared

I'm having trouble with that one too. Not trouble with believing it happened to you, but trouble believing that the WCO can do that. And trouble believing that it would be a violation of any law if indeed you did have lead shot in your vehicle and not on your person.

I seem to remember though (not at all sure if I'm right) hearing that a WCO has much, much broader search powers than police do.

Maybe Dr. Trout can e mail this one to his WCO buddy and get his take on this.


A couple things here guys....
First of all a WCO does NOT have broader search powers than the State Police. They might "tell" you they do but they do not. For them to have "broader search powers than the State Police" you would have to have LESS rights which cannot happen under the Constitution. They do, however, have some "gray areas" that they work with and manipulate very well. But, in no way, do they have more "power" than the police.

Secondly, it is NOT illegal to have lead shot in your vehicle while hunting waterfowl. It is illegal to have it on your person. Plain and simple! Allowing them to search your vehicle without probable cause is just plain silly---that is the kind of thing that makes "them" think they have more power than the State Police because a trooper wouldn't even think of searching a vehicle without probable cause and a consent to search.

Finally.......KNOW THE LAW AND KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!



heyiknowyou -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/7/2009 10:55:51 AM)

hummer, it's all good.

we didn't argue anything, we knew we didnt have anything that they could find wrong so if they wanted to dig, they could. had a warden give me and my dad a warning one year because he couldnt cite us for anything illegal and wanted to appease the person who called in complaining about us. for future reference guys... if you shoot off of a bridge sidewalk, it is perfectly legal as long as 1. you're not shooting in the plane of the road and 2. you are not standing on the traveled portion (aka between the white and yellow lines). haha



Mikastorm -> RE: Goose/Dove scenario (10/9/2009 10:00:40 AM)

Finally.......KNOW THE LAW AND KNOW YOUR RIGHTS


+1



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