Scouting for sign

Scouting for sign

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Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 11:45:16 AM

henhouse

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SGL 82 Just got back from scouting the game-land that I had bow-hunted in the years before the herd reduction. Not much to report as far as deer sign. Very few droppings and one rub. This area was once so good that this bow-hunter would travel from 300 acres of private ground just to hunt here. What a shame to think that 6,000 acres of prime hunting ground has very few deer. After 44 years of bow-hunting I do remember what deer sign looks like; and this area has very little of it. Our private ground does have deer; but not any way close to what I would expect after not shooting any does for more than 5 years. On my trail camera so far, I have more bear pictures than bucks. Any comments?

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 12:25:51 PM

jlh42581

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Just like everything, adapt and overcome, if the deer arent there, move on. Ive seen a lot of deer this year.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 12:37:52 PM

griffon

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I will say this. I primarily hunt 2B and there has definitely been a thinning of the herd (not a bad thing). BUT... I do believe that the game commission assumes that there is an endless number of deer in this area, as they basically offer unlimited antlerless tags. If the herd continues in the same direction it is going, as quickly as it is currently trending and the game commission doesn't begin to take a serious look at reducing tags, they are going to hear SWPA residents griping at them as much as the Northern guys have been for the last few years. I believe that someone is sleeping at the switch in our PGC offices. They need to wake up before they crash our herd like they have in some other parts of the state.

< Message edited by griffon -- 10/2/2008 12:38:47 PM >

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 12:45:14 PM

SilverKype

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I've had to make a bunch of adjustments this year. Most of my core areas are void of deer. I mean, spotting for miles, and nothing. Always saw hundreds of eye balls there since I can remember. So, I went to the other side spotting last night. Bingo, fields are loaded. 200 or so in one field. Time to, yet again, explore unchartered waters. I'm certainly not going to sit in areas void of deer.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 12:48:59 PM

griffon

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To some degree that is the case in 2B as well, but the numbers are WAYYYY down compared to the last few years. The problem here is that you can't just pick up and move that easily. It is a lot more complicated than areas with large sprawling farms and parcels.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 1:08:44 PM

Esox_Hunter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: griffon

I will say this. I primarily hunt 2B and there has definitely been a thinning of the herd (not a bad thing). BUT... I do believe that the game commission assumes that there is an endless number of deer in this area, as they basically offer unlimited antlerless tags. If the herd continues in the same direction it is going, as quickly as it is currently trending and the game commission doesn't begin to take a serious look at reducing tags, they are going to hear SWPA residents griping at them as much as the Northern guys have been for the last few years. I believe that someone is sleeping at the switch in our PGC offices. They need to wake up before they crash our herd like they have in some other parts of the state.

I agree 100% griff. It is starting to get out of control; the endless amount of deer they tell you about are, for the most part in the non-accesible areas. The highly suburban areas more specifically; it is much more rural in the northern part of 2B. In northern 2B I have seen a dramatic decrease in overall deer numbers in most of the areas I hunt. Don't get me wrong there are still plenty of deer however, if we continue the unlimited doe tags, 13 weeks of archery, and an extra 3 weeks for harvesting does we certainly will be in the same boat as some of the northern areas.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 3:15:48 PM

henhouse

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Relocating or going to another hunting area is not something I consider an option at this time. Why? Because I live here in 2C, have another home in my hunting area and also land and a cabin in that area. I surely don't want to travel any distance to enjoy bow-hunting with the added expense of lodging and gas. After all; aren't the primary reasons that hunting land and cabins were purchased was to hunt deer? No wonder the number of folks that hunt has decreased every year. Many cabins in my area are empty the first day of deer season. Us die-hards will continue to sit in a tree no matter how few deer we see; but try to get a youngster to do that. They are the future license buyers; the Pa.Game Comm. better hope they are.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 3:24:22 PM

jlh42581

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I can understand that. I didnt mean to jump WMU's... try places you least expect to see deer or have never thought to look. If they were there, theyre there somewhere. Just like John said...over the valley.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 4:59:35 PM

MuskyMastr

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JLH Cmon up to 2F and see the millions of acres of deer habitat that is void of animals and tell me why I should have to move. Then try and kill a deer while you are at it.

They have ruined the deer herd on the notion that it would fix our forests. Now we have ****ty forest and no deer.

This is why we should vote for our Game commissioners rather than have them appointed by some greaseball in harrisburg.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 8:19:58 PM

chicken27

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Henhouse i'm not try to be a diiick or nothing.We hunted state gamelands for 5 years in a row.We would sit in one spot from dark to dark not one of us but 20 to 25 guys and nobody would see more then maybe one or two deer all day long.I understand about been a die hard thing but way waste your time in a spot with no deer.Maybe hang a camera or two on the other side of the mountain.Maybe they moved or there aint no deer left take your losts and move on.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 8:22:04 PM

chicken27

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We want up my brothers yesterday to check cameras and hang a new one.We walked a long way trying to find a good rub line but all we could find was one here and there.Any of you guys been finding alot of rubs yet?

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Post #: 11

RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 9:05:32 PM

henhouse

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Chicken I don't mean that there isn't any deer; just so few thats its not an enjoyable day for a young hunter to sit all day and see darn few if any. The mentality of killing does just because the state says I can will not allow the herd to increase. A forester has told me that the ideal deer density should be about 12 deer per sq. mile depending on habitat. State game land 82 is over 6,000 acres; which is roughly 10 sq. miles.So this area; according to him should have no more than 120 deer on it. Not a very good chance at seeing a deer at that density. This is an entire area-wise problem; not just one ridge or mountain. Looking elsewhere has been what I've been doing; same results everywhere as far as little deer sign.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 9:18:34 PM

chicken27

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Thats what i'm worried about my daughter first year hunting i don't know how she is going to handle sitting in a blind all day.It will probably be a short day i'm expecting.I saw 27 doe last year before 9 am then we had to leave because of a death in the family.I hope she does good the old man aint getting no younger so i could use a new hunting buddy.

< Message edited by chicken27 -- 10/2/2008 9:24:13 PM >

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/2/2008 9:36:24 PM

jlh42581

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr

JLH Cmon up to 2F and see the millions of acres of deer habitat that is void of animals and tell me why I should have to move. Then try and kill a deer while you are at it.

They have ruined the deer herd on the notion that it would fix our forests. Now we have ****ty forest and no deer.

This is why we should vote for our Game commissioners rather than have them appointed by some greaseball in harrisburg.

Oh i dont doubt you, you guys arent the only ones complaining. The area i hunt most is literally choked on the forest floor with vegetation. Ive never seen it like this since ive hunted this area. A sure sign numbers are down. Im all about elected officials in the PGC. In fact, if that day ever comes, youll prob see my name on the card.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 3:38:31 AM

pin_drifter

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been scouting the last 3 days hard all the places i always kill bucks see bucks is ???????
well i don't know. very few white oaks where normaly their are thousands on the ground very few. I seen maybe a handful of rubs in each location. I have my dad set up on a swath path with about 25 rubs and a scrape under a apple tree with no fruit on it about 30 yards... deer shi! everywhere on the scrape licking branch was hit hard last couple days checked it today nothing has hit it for a day or two now. Going to throw some active scrape on it tommarrow see what happenes. But honeslty haven't found anything impressive as of yet.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 6:08:14 AM

jlh42581

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pin_drifter

been scouting the last 3 days hard all the places i always kill bucks see bucks is ???????
well i don't know. very few white oaks where normaly their are thousands on the ground very few. I seen maybe a handful of rubs in each location. I have my dad set up on a swath path with about 25 rubs and a scrape under a apple tree with no fruit on it about 30 yards... deer shi! everywhere on the scrape licking branch was hit hard last couple days checked it today nothing has hit it for a day or two now. Going to throw some active scrape on it tommarrow see what happenes. But honeslty haven't found anything impressive as of yet.

STAY OUT OF THERE!

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 8:32:12 AM

dpms

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quote:

ORIGINAL: griffon

I do believe that the game commission assumes that there is an endless number of deer in this area, as they basically offer unlimited antlerless tags. If the herd continues in the same direction it is going, as quickly as it is currently trending and the game commission doesn't begin to take a serious look at reducing tags, they are going to hear SWPA residents griping at them as much as the Northern guys have been for the last few years.

There has been some discussion about realigning the SRA to better focus the pressure where it is needed and to ease the pressure where it is not. Many, myself included realize how difficult it is to acces the areas that truly need HR in the SRA.

There is a group that was planning to testify in front of the board but changed to another topic that they felt was more pressing.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 8:36:47 AM

dpms

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henhouse

Any comments?

Tough times for some. Make the most out of them with frequent trips to the squirrel woods, groundhog fields and turkeys where those juniors will see all the action they need to keep them enthused.

If the focus is only about deer and you are unwilling to do some traveling, it will be a uphill struggle.

When I started hunting in the early 80's, my uncle took me squirrel hunting every Saturday within 30 minutes of home and we would drive 3 hours to the deer woods. I killed enough squirrels and saw enough deer that I couldn't wait to go back.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 10:04:32 AM

Dr. Trout

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INTERESTING !!!

quote:

Our private ground does have deer; but not any way close to what I would expect after not shooting any does for more than 5 years

That's EXACTLY what the PGC.. Deer Biologists and even me on my message boards have been saying for YEARS......now you are seeing that it is true for yourself....

Not shooting does is NOT going to automatically increase your populatioin and in MOST CASES actually works in reverse... folks just have not wanted to believe this no matter what they read..see.. or even now hear from a person who has tried not harvesting does in his area and is not seeing an increase...

As for 2F.. still PLENTY of deer here in my area SGL 54 and SGL44.. and over at Clear Creek State Forest... spotted over 30 in a four mile ride last evening and even shared photos of some here

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 10:17:15 AM

Dr. Trout

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elected commissioners......

You guys have got to be NUTS !!!!!!

there are more non-hunters in Pa than hunters.....

you honestly want folks who have no interest in hunting to make the rules or elect someone they know will respond to them and NOT hunters... to make or change the rules

Let them make the rules.... ?? You've got to be kiddin me....

DANG -----

I can see my local SGL 54 becoming a camping ground and ATV heaven in no time....

Two local politicians (Surra and Scarnati) already could care less about the PGC or hunters.... they are TOURIST FOLKS !!!!!

and I have spoken and written to both on PGC and hunting isues...

and know that to be TRUE !!!!

TOURISM for the northcentral is the current battle cry...

BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU WISH FOR.....

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 10:39:04 AM

SilverKype

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Right on Trout. You still not smokin?

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 12:23:38 PM

jlh42581

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The way i see it, there wouldnt be anyone on the ticket who wasnt an avid outdoorsman/woman

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 12:35:38 PM

SilverKype

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You only represent 8% of PA's population though J.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 12:36:27 PM

SilverKype

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Perhaps it's a bit higher with fisher people. Hunting is around 8%.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 3:39:29 PM

henhouse

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Dr. I can't help but question the statement about not shooting does works in reverse. If I have 10 mature does and you have 10; I don't shoot any, but you shoot 3. You now have 7 and I have 10 to reproduce next year. Who will have more fawns(future bucks) next year? I must admit that I am not a Dr. but less doesns't mean more to me. The land owners surrounding my leased 300 acres hammer the does and by your way of explaining it to me; we all should have more deer. Sorry; but my thoughts are that if it wasn't for the few that choose not to shoot does; the others wouldn't have any deer to hunt in a few short years. I'm just an ex-farmboy who doesn't call less cows a bigger herd.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 9:06:48 PM

Dr. Trout

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Henhouse...

Let's think horses instead of deer for a minute...

I have 5 acres of good pasture for female horses.. that will feed the 5 horses FOR THE SUMMER without any supplimental feedings... if the females have colts and I do not get rid of some horses (adults or colts) what are the 5 mature horses plus young going to eat in the following summer ?????

A forest can only support so many deer... PERIOD.... not harvesting enough does will over-load the food sources and more and more will leave to new areas to find food....

Just a basic FACT OF NATURE....NO animal can stay in an area that does not supply enough food....

Now in your example...

I shot 3 and have 7 left...
I have the same food supply for the three I shot to share with new fawns....

and the food left from a few bucks harvested... plus the food from the bucks that got chased off ... so I now have room for all the deer left...

the fawns and any bucks coming from the area they got chased from....

a balanced management plan...

You harvested NO does.... you still have the 10 adult does and no food for thir fawns..

PLUS keep in mind those male fawns will get chased to a new area.....

you'll have to depend on bucks coming to your area from where they got chased....

BUT wait .. you have the remaining bucks not harvested... all 10 does...plus their fawns..

what are the bucks coming in going to eat ??????

Odds are they will keep travelin' to find a better less stressed food source....

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/3/2008 9:18:32 PM

Dr. Trout

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Jeremy....

PLEASE -- PLEASE --- do not allow yourself to believe for ONE MINUTE there will not be support to get non-hunters on an elected Board of commissioners....

Look at all the complaining about the current ones and they all are avid sportsmen...

They already want to shorten the terms of those avid sportsmen to 4 years....

that way they can get in the type folks they want or throw out the ones they don't every fours years.... after they get a board of more non-hunters they can change it back to 8 years or maybe even make it a life time job....

BAD BAD idea.. elected PGC commissioners...

I have even had converstaions with some of the more PGC supporting politicians and even they agree it would be a bad idea because it would open the door for non-hunter types to get the positions...

You think the commisioner elected from the Philly area would be pro-gun ?????

just an example there...

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/4/2008 11:15:39 AM

jlh42581

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No but as i see this whole event played out. You dont vote for the officials unless you carry a pa hunting license for a minimum of 5 years.

Of course, im just dreeeaaamn on.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/4/2008 11:37:34 AM

S-10

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If you want to improve the PGC's attention to hunters concerns you FIRST have to elect a Governor who cares about hunters concerns. The governor is the one that controls who runs the DCNR and appoints the game commissioners. The current one is more aligned with the Calif enviromentalists and the timber industry. Until that changes hunters will slowly lose out to the non hunters and anti hunters.

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RE: Scouting for sign - 10/4/2008 8:32:57 PM

Dr. Trout

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Oh My God...

I have NEVER posted this before...

I agree with S-10 ! 100% !!!!!

< Message edited by Dr. Trout -- 10/4/2008 8:33:20 PM >

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