RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming season...

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming season...

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RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 3:38:38 PM

spoonchucker

Posts: 5833
Status: offline

"The challenge for me is to get out there and find them, wherever they may be."

That's the big difference between the angler, and the "fisherman". Sure, it's great to walk up to a hole knowing already that it's loaded with fish. But there is also great satisfaction in looking at a stretch of water, picking seam, or pocket, believing ( without prior knowledge) that it will hold fish, and being rewarded for that faith.

_____________________________

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside

The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL&TC

(in reply to spoonchucker)

Post #: 91

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 6:59:01 PM

MackJ

Posts: 318
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline

I'm quite reluctant to post a response based upon the personal invective that it seems to draw from all these venerable regulars-- but I will address a few of the comments. I haven't checked, but I think you can search and find every post I have ever made on this forum if you are curious to know what I have contributed. Without doing so myself, I would guess that I have shared what little knowledge I have when questions were posed to which I could provide helpful information. I have also spent way too much time combatting the attempts by regulars to dictate to others what they should and should not post. I would further guess that I have NEVER either requested specific information on locations nor posted specific information about where fish might be.

I have been a member for 10 months as you noted. I have been fishing the tribs for about 5-6 years. At first one or two trips a year, generally with poor results. With the help of a personal mentor, however, I have improved my catching over the past couple years, so much so that I probably made 6-7 trip last season. What I learned from the personal mentor is that the key to having a good day is to be there under decent conditions-- not necessarily optimal conditions. The second key is to be casting where there are fish. I do not need, nor even want to fish only when I can see a pile of fish stacked up. I know that if the fish have made it to the area I am fishing, I can figure out where they may be. I also learned that they are in lots of places where others just walk on by. Yet, in the earliest part of the season, if the fish have not made it to the Legion Hole, for instance, or dare I mention Sterretania, there is no sense going there and wasting your time.

In the several posts that were directed at me since my last, I noticed people have tried to shift the debate from my original criticism to a debate about whether there is some harm in mentioning a very specific section of private water that is open but as to which the landowner's willingness to keep it open depends upon it being relatively unused. This is NOT what I found objectionable in the original post. While I still feel that others are free to mention such stream sections if they are not violating a landowner's trust, I would think that discretion here would be wise.

As for whether there are free speech rights on a privately maintained message board, there are not. It is up to the owner what they will permit. Let me repeat, with emphasis: it is up to the OWNER what they will permit. Has anyone noticed that Fish USA representatives have never weighed-in on the numerous threads beating this topic into the ground? I addressed why I think that is-- because fish USA does not want this board that they pay for to become the private social club for regulars, governed by the ethic that serves only such regulars. they want this board to attract more and more anglers to Erie and more and more purchasers to their commercial enterprise. While they know that expansion of their business requires new blood, they also know that a free exchange of information that helps novice anglers is good for that purpose. Still, they won't step up and tell those who want to limit the type or amount of information shared to back-off because they want those person participating in the Board, being potential customers and promoting the industry from which they derive their revenue.

Finally, if you are looking for me to engage in a tit-for-tat of the insults and name-calling, it won't happen, nor will I indulge your inquiries regarding how and to what extent I donate my time to my fellow man. If you volunteer to improve the fishery that you enjoy and thereby also benefit others, you are deserving of your praise and my thanks and admiration. However, if you think any of that entitles you to be wrong, to control others' message board behavior, insult others without being insulted in return, then it really casts a cloud over your otherwise laudable activities.

(in reply to spoonchucker)

Post #: 92

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 8:58:30 PM

beerman

Posts: 3658
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Key West, Florida
Status: online

Well said, formerguide! Thanks for taking the time to write the initial post in this thread and those after. I just wish I could type faster, lol! Another thread of similar importance was written by Danjae a few years ago. He rewrote it last year. Here it is: (Thanks Danjae)

The Basics:

Have been fishing steelhead / salmon in Erie for 27 years and in my opinion 90% of the trouble people have in catching steelhead is bad or wrong terminal tackle. The difference between getting hits or standing there wondering "what the heck am I doing wrong" is ALL in the minor details. If the water is high moving fast and a little off color everyone will catch fish regardless. These tips are for the days when the fishing gets tougher. The people that hammer these fish day in and day out no matter what conditions would like you to believe it is their great skill. Don't get me wrong there is a lot of skill and experience involved. Experience helps in detecting the strikes, knowing the difference in how a float acts when it ticks a rock or a steelie has it, knowing where the likely places and seams are and how to drift just right through them and knowing when to strike and to strike fast and to strike whether your sure it is a hit or not and probably 100 other things that we do without even thinking about it. Still in my opinion 90% is your terminal tackle. So I would strongly suggest you get the items listed below for your use.

Line I would go with 61b test clear or green if your using stren or Trilene. My favorite is Yo-Zuri 4lb (is stronger then most brands of 6Ib). I would STRONGLY suggest buying 4X Seaguar grand Max fluro tippet for the final 2-3 feet. Not sure if you have used it before but is awesome stuff. Fluro tipett is mandatory if you want to get the most strikes possible. Reason I suggest 6 Ib test if it isn't Yo-zuri 4lb is that seaguar grand max 4x is rated at 7lb test even though it is smaller diameter then 4lb test. If you use 4lb stren for example it will probably break before the seaguar and will cost you gear. If you use the 4lb yo-zuri the seaguar will break first. Try not to use a swivel to connect the lines, just use a knot to knot connection. Seaguar is like $12.99 for 25 meters but since you only use 2 feet or so at a time it lasts a long time and is worth every cent.

Shiny split shots are horrid and scare fish. Go with micro shot made by black bird, sure shot or english shot…see sizes below, Like $2 a pack. If you feel there is a need to have bigger shot buy a bunch a couple months ahead of time and put them in a open container outside so they oxidize and turn dark losing that "shine".

Hooks go with Daiichi and just buy size 16,s and 18's. Yeah your going to think they are way too small...trust me. No matter what bait you use (except large pieces of skein) they will work perfectly. Main reason for using such a tiny hook is so you can hide it completely. If you use eggs or waxies make sure NO part of that hook is visible ever. If your waxie bunches up so part of the hook is visible thread a new waxie on. Reason I recommend Daiichi is they are very strong and it takes a very high quality hook to not straighten out when you are fighting a steelhead. On the really tough days I will sometimes use a size 22 hook and just thread on a single maggot...bear in mind if you try this fight the fish gently because a size 22 daiichi will straighten out. $3.99 for 25 hooks.

Live type baits. only 4 you need to consider.

Shiners/fatheads/minnows hardly ever use them because I think they are a pain in the rump to carry around but they are an excellent bait.

Skein works great but fresh it is messy lol and I won't use it. I keep 3 hen steelhead a year or so and any female coho I may catch. I cure the skein which makes it easier to handle and that lasts me the season. I use skein mostly two ways. Either with a size 18 hook and a piece of skein the size of a pencil eraser or a tad bigger. Other time skein is good is high very dirty water. In that case I will use a larger hook and a piece 2-4 times marble size. If you can get brown trout skein it is superior to steelhead or salmon skein.

Single local eggs (like at poor Richards) work very well and are my second favorite bait.

My best bait and what I catch 90%+ of my steel head on is wax worms. I go through 1000's of them in a season. I don't know why they work so well but I think it is a combination of color and scent. I know sucker spawn in the same color as wax worms works well.

Flies...I use sucker spawn and egg flies the egg flies I tip with real eggs if the water is stained and has a decent flow. Cream (color of wax worms) orange and pink. Goes without saying but low clear water small to tiny flies high and dirty big and bright. Wolly buggers are always good, Small nymphs work great also. Large flies can be used to annoy the fish into striking in clear water but that is a whole long topic in and of itself. Small jigs are also a great bait either in normal or glow in the dark for night fishing. I especially like the glow in the dark jigs in 1/100 oz at night...real killer in clear water. Use a camera or flashlight to get them glowing...camera flash works much better.

Floats / strike indicators smaller the better. What I use are the second to smallest ones Poor Richards sells.
Orange on top with a natural white styrofoam bottom and a black pin. If the water is high though you will need bigger floats so you can add more weight to get your offering to the bottom in that faster current.

Stealth... Once these fish are in the creeks awhile with low clear water they get educated fast. They are not really spooked most times just disinterested / careful / timid / reluctant?? They have all been hooked numerous times so you have to be clever. The more perfect your terminal tackle, bait, drift and stealth are the more hits you will get...is as simple as that. Take those floats I suggested, natural styrofoam color on the bottom and bright orange on top. They aren't exactly stealthy. If you sand 80% of that orange off down to the white underneath and just leave a small circle of orange around the pin to make them easier to see your better off. I sand all the orange off but my eyes are still pretty sharp. Now take a light blue sharpie (they only make two shades of blue sharpies light and dark you want light) and make the float blue except for the tiny bit of orange you left. Why? Picture yourself as the fish and look up what do you see? a nice sky blue sky. Some say steelhead just see shades of color and not true colors and I have no idea. I don't know if it is that the bobber blends into the sky or if it is just that they have never seen a blue float so they aren't spooked by it. What I do know is it works. I have never seen anyone but me use blue floats lol. You can also use clear plastic floats for the same basic effect. Have tried coloring the floats brown as well and it works equally well, my bet is you could make that float any dull color that is not a normal float color and it would work. Fluro tipett, black bird shot, dull colored floats and tiny sz 18 hooks….catching fish in low clear water is all about stealth.

So if you use the equipment and bait I just suggested all that is left is that 10% technique. Really is only 3 basic things. First vary your leader / float / shot placement length and try it from shallow till the bait is dragging bottom till you find what works. Make sure you don't put the shot to close to the bait or fly, 12 inches minimum and I like 18 inches better. If though your fishing in high dirty water you will need to move the shot closer to the hook even 6 inches or so. The steelhead tend to hold at different depths. Some will be quite close to the surface others in the middle and some on the bottom so by changing depth often you can target all the zones. Second is drift mending your line is crucial. If you just cast out and let your float drift down stream your line will be ahead of the float. It will get a lil bow in it and that will pull your float down the stream faster then the current speed, you can't let it do this. You need to keep flicking your slack upstream during the drift so your slack line is even with or behind your float. Third, Steelhead are big but big does not always translate into hitting hard. Sometimes the strikes can be very light. If your float is rigged for 2 feet deep and your in 3 feet of water all your float may do to indicate a strike is just stop or it may just "wiggle". If it just wiggles once for a second it could be your line bumping into a fish, if it wiggles more then a second or 2 set the hook. When in doubt set the hook. You want as little split as possible on your line between your float and the hook, exact amount will vary with the speed of the current and depth of the water. With that small shot I suggest your bait will sink slower then you think it should but that is what you want. You do need to add shot directly under the float to balance the float so a light take will be enough to make it submerge or at least be noticeable. If you don't add shot under the float when the fish strikes and feels that floats resistance it will either not be noticeable or the fish may just let go. If you make the float barely able to float you have a better chance the fish will hold on that extra second or 2 or will keep taking the float down and that pays off in many more hooked fish.

Night Fishing:

Some people think the steelies won't hit at night and that is their loss. You can only fish Walnut and Elk after
1 0:00pm and only north of route 5. What I would do if I was you is first go to Walmart and buy a pack of glow sticks (sporting goods dept). They are 1.5 inch cyclamine sticks that you bend and shake and they glow...if you didn't know that lol. Adapt a small bobber to hold them. I use the smallest styrofoam cigar shaped floats walmart sells...red top white bottom with a red plastic pin in the top. I drill the foam floats out so the glow stick acts as the pin. You will be able to see your float on the water very easily with the so detecting strikes is easy. Far as bait/lure glow jigs kick butt, they are just tiny 1/64th or 1/100 or 1/200oz jigs that glow in the dark just light them up with a flashlight or camera flash which is what I use and works much better. Is no need to use a tipett at night with these jigs. The smaller the jig is the better they work. If you have to go down to 1/200 jigs fight the fish gently because the hooks are quite weak. I don't believe you can buy the 1/100 or 1/200 glow jigs already tied anywhere so hopefully you know how to tie them (if not i'm sure we could work something out if you wanted some but very easy to tie). You can buy the 1/100 oz jig heads and the glow in the dark flashabou at Poor Richards, the smaller size jigheads are mail order only. Poor Richards sells the glow in the dark flashabou in white orange and green...white works best. You can tip the jigs with wax worms if desired which sometimes helps. You can also catch them at night on bait as well. Once it gets daylight go with the suggestions in the Basics text.

So list is:

Tipett: Seaguar Grand max fluro carbon in 4X lib test 25 meters $12.99 back wall of Poor Richards.

Split shot: black bird, Sure Shot or english splits $1.99 right in front of the bobbers by the door on the front face ofthe shelf. You will know them when you see them...very small, black and non removable. Size you want is #6 .11gram or #4.20gram the #4.20gram is probably best.

Floats: orange top white bottom black pin smallest of that type they have and get a larger size if the water is high. Across from cash register. Like 45 cents each.

Hooks: Daiichi size 18 right behind floats on the wall $3.99 for 25 hooks.

Bait: You can either buy the wax worms in a Iil container with 25 in them (buy a few) or a tub of waxies for $8 and is like 250...best bet if you have a few guys or you will be fishing more then a day. You can ask them for some film cans if you buy a tub so you can break them up between your group.

Single local eggs are right by the register. Pick the size container you want, small or large.

They also sell minnows and skein if you want to use them. Remember minnows are a great bait especially if your new to this. Even if you make a lot of mistakes with technique they will still smack that wiggling minnow.

Should say I have nothing to do with Poor Richards it is just my shop of choice and Gary and Dot are very good people and I know they carry everything I suggested you purchase. You of course can purchase the items I mention anywhere, your not required to purchase it from Poor Richards.

Report | Post #: 1

http://forums.fishusa.com/m_23220/mpage_1/key_steelhead%252Cbasics/tm.htm#23220

_____________________________

changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes....nothing remains quite the same

The Beerman ~ Greg

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 93

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 9:07:50 PM

steelheadman28

Posts: 367
Joined: 9/10/2006
Status: offline

Thanks for asking.
It works very simply and very fairly "according to Mack J":

1. If you want to share information in as much detail as you prefer, you are free to do so.
2. If you want to ask questions about specific locations, conditions, etc., you are likewise free to do so.
3. If you want to moan about someone helping someone out with specific information, you are free to do so.
4. If you want to be critical of people who moan about others choosing to share detailed information, you are free to do so.

Adding (as a result of reading further in the thread):

I am not asking anyone for specifics, nor being critical of anyone who wishes not to post it. I am, however, always critical of people who attempt to establish a rule of message board behavior that requires everyone else to conform to that tight-lipped standard.
[/quote]

Why can't you check the weather for yourself there are multiple sites. Also learn how to understand how streams react to weather. If it downpours, good chance its high and muddy may take a day or 2 to clear depending on the stream. Also like everyone else is telling you to explore, then find out for yourself and explore. I'm not a local but I can go up there with knowledge of how the streams should be, pick the stream, walk and pick pods of fish. I prefer to stay away from the crowds. But if there are just a couple other people then yes try it. JUST FIND OUT YOURSELF!!

_____________________________

...of all the liars among mankind, the fisherman is the most trustworthy.
Anthony

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 94

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 9:12:51 PM

formerguideII

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline

MackJ-

Tsk, tsk, tsk... I must say that I'm disappointed in you. This is how you end it? Full of sound and fury, but significant of nothing...

FACT- When called upon to list what YOU have done for the benefit of others on this site, you've hidden behind some false sense of impropriety like a politician caught in a lie...

FACT- You still have not shown, with either evidence, data or even societal conjecture what the harm of my inital post was, aside from your own dislike of being "told what to do..." which, btw, was not what I was doing, but more on that later.

FACT- You admit to being a newcomer, both to this board and to the fishery, and yet are so arrogant as to take no heed of what others are saying, take no notice of the evidence at hand, and argue like a senior on the high school debate team, armed with little but a sense of inflated ego, some semi-articulate syntax and phrasing, and a lack of command of the evidence on hand.

FACT- You still have not addressed my initial argument, which is what is wrong with being able to list as much information as anyone could want (ie, Elk between Rt 20 and Follies) without listing specific spots? Who does that harm? Who does that benefit more so than others? Do you know how to read a map, you ignoramus?

FACT- You now hide behind the argument "my original argument was not about the harm to landowners, harm done, etc..." when in fact, it was YOU who stated, and I quote verbatim, "The notion that somehow this ethic is all about preserving open private water is a diversion." It is, is it? So you will now counter this with, " My ORIGINAL post was about the self serving-nature of the conduct suggested..."

FACT- You have, in no way, shape or form, shown how my initial ideas of posting conduct benefits anyone more than anyone else, be it local, M'upers, or traveling anglers from Saigon. Again, if you would have brought some actual ideas to the table, myself, and many others, would have glady listened. You talk about looking back through posts- feel free to check mine brother. I'm not above conceding a point, admitting when I am wrong, or listening to a dissenting point of view. Can you say the same? Again, you're admittedly a neophyte, yet speak with all of the bluster and grandiose ego of someone with years of expertise, unwiling to listen or learn.

FACT- I, and others, have shown to you with factual and proven instances of the harm in posting specific spots- you neither acknowledge, nor argue the point. You are, truth be told, at a loss, being backed into a corner with no escape other than subterfuge and hackneyed responses of an arrogant nature.

FACT- You're favorite argument seems to be, "well, you're wrong and I'm right..." Wrong at what? Wrong that I have ideas that I think will be beneficial and "fair" (your over-used idea again) for all. Again, show me how my initial ideas are unfair to you, but fair to others...

FACT- You're a prick (sorry, I couldn't control myself...)

FACT- You're initial post could EASILY have stated, as you later quite grudgingly admitted, "While you bring up a few good points, and have brought forth a wealth of information, I do in fact take issue with a number of your ideas, not the least of which I feel that your "code of conduct" if you will is beneficial to only a few, and not to all..." And while I certainly would stil have argued the point, this could have been a far more productive, and ultimately civil, discussion. Instead, you responded immediately all full of your own morality and high-mindedness, and got your ass handed to you.

FACT- I have offered to show you the effects that poor choices on this board have had on our fishery, to the detriment of ALL- I believe that others have offered in kind as well. Time to cowboy up brother- are you willing to take a look in the mirror, swallow your pride, and for once concede that perhaps you aren't the smartest guy in the room? The offer still stands- I hold no personal animus towards you, other than my belief that you are misguided and incorrect in both your assimilation of the facts at hand, and your short-sightedness in believeing that your 5-6 years of fishing in Erie has given you full comprehension of the rather complex issus that have been brought forth here.

FACT- Calling out Spoon with your infantile prodding of his "omniscience" (again, verbatim) was foolish and hardly becoming of someone who by all accounts is trying to persuade and drive home a point. Again, call me what you will, but that specific comment exposed your ignorance and your arrogance- can you find it within yourself to apologize? Again, I can be a complete ass, I neither shy away from this nor revel in it- it's who I am. But Spoon is a great guy who has done a MYRIAD of good things for the fishery and this board- you cannot say the same, and it make you look the fool to have treated him so poorly.

FACT- My fingers are tired from typing...

Well, that's about it for this round. MackJ, with each word you type, the deeper you bury yourself. Please think about the following- what does it mean to be a true sportsman or woman...? What can YOU do to benefit the fishery and the land? What is wrong with rules being set forth that benefit all- without rules, there can only be anarchy... BTW, I'm quite the fan of anarchy, so perhaps a better choice of words is in order, but I digress...

Cheers-
Dan

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 95

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 9:19:37 PM

formerguideII

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline

Oh, and of course, this is still Dan- perhaps we shall call "formerguide" Dan at work, and "formerguideII" Dan at home...

Alas, my lack of computer accumen is catching up with me...

(in reply to formerguideII)

Post #: 96

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 9:42:11 PM

MackJ

Posts: 318
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline

Your memory is selective or you are just purposely dishonest in your efforts to impugn me. You brought "landowner" concerns as a justification for your imperative about not asking or telling how far the fish have run into the argument: "If he, or you, or I post about the fantastic fishing above McKean, when everyone else is still fishing below the Legion Hole, then it is to the detriment of all, including the fishery, the landowners, and spirit of this sport. Again, if you fail to see this, then you are not the true sportsman that I suspect you are judging by the quality and forcefulness of your comments... " [Post #16] long before I mentioned how it was a mere diversion for the true reason people want this information held close to the vest-- mine was Post #42, after a few other allies hid behind that false justification.

It's hilarious that I should feel any need to apologize for telling spoonchucker that "omiscience is... not one of his superpowers" [Post #44] after this from him:

"Thruth is, you are desperately trying to ensure that folk will keep posting WHERE you should fish, HOW MANY fish will be there, and WHAT you should use due to WHAT the conditions are. In other words, your afraid mommy might put her teet back in her blouse."[Post #43]

And then finally, I am supposed to "defend" myself by justifying having contrary opinions by posting my good deeds, like I am coming here for YOUR approval. Frankly, based upon your behavior in defending your honor and all these other stellar examples of sportsmanship you honor, I really want nothing more than to be disdained by you. Like I said earlier: my work is done. Very clearly done.

< Message edited by MackJ -- 8/8/2008 9:45:54 PM >

(in reply to Stillhead)

Post #: 97

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 9:52:40 PM

ShutUpNFish

Posts: 1135
Joined: 3/16/2007
Status: offline

I think I'd rather see a fight than the hurling of all these elaborate terms and words. Way above me, I must admit!

Can't we all just get along?

_____________________________

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
-Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 98

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 9:57:01 PM

jonnyfishon

Posts: 1263
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline

I thank you guys for the edumacation. All these big words invective, laudable , prick. You guys are all full of knowledge and making a difference, Even I used this knowlege to make a better "sportsman" out of myself. I agree that you should not give out info on honey holes for the simple fact that that is half the fun. What is so hard about using the pm. This is for the members . I joined this site because I love fishing and arguing and busting balls. We should keep the specifics to the members only. From a to b is fine but to tell people the seems and the tailouts and exact location is plain dumb. Let them find it the way we all find holes. I find the people who dont want to put in the work to be a better fisherman are the ones that the landowners want off their land. I bet there are alot of asses reading these boards going , duud, theres fish at 2mile by the bridge next to the 2nd tree, lets get some beer , and crash the party duud. Next thing ya know theres 40 beer cans at your favorite hole that you might never fish again. Point is , use the privite message to send the goods to people you feel are true fisherman. I bet I wont get to many pm's, but that because Im a prick(those big words, gotta love em)

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 99

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 10:17:18 PM

formerguideII

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline

MackJ-

You remind me of a boxer, all battered and bruised, losing the fight by a wide margin, behind on every card, and slurring to his corner-man "just one more round- I've got him now..." You're work is done? Very clearly done? Well, if you're work was to make yourself look like an ass, show a lack of understanding of the issues at hand, expose yourself to the members of this board as a whiner and a malcontent, and otherwise embarass yourself and impugn the term "sportsman" then I suppose you're correct- congratulations!

Sheesh, how much abuse can one guy take? "Defending my honor?" For goodnesss sakes man- I've already called myself an ass several times- I can't be more self-deprecating!

Again, do you accept my invitation, and the invitation of others? Can you, in even one teenie part of you, admit that, per chance, there is vailidity in the inital ideas put forth? Why do you not answer any of these questions asked above? If you cannot refute even one of them, how can you continue posting here with any credibility? Seriously, I'm curious as to what your response is?!?

BTW- your posts suggest (and I could be wrong- please feel free to correct me) that you belong to a number of boards... You think this is abuse? Get a thick skin chief- go join The Drake, then you'll know what online abuse really can be...

Also, I would like to make one clarification- it has been brought to my attention that the posted land on 20 Mile was not due entirely to the pressure caused by posts here, but rather by a number of other, ancillary and outside problems. I was incorrect, and I should acknoweldge that. I can easily make reference to a dozen other instances, but in this particular case, apparently there were other, overriding issues at hand- thank you for pointing that out Doc.

Well, I believe that my 21-month-old son has again gotten a fruit snack stuck in his belly button- I need to attend to him. 'Til next time, tight lines, good dreams, and goodnight!

Dan "at home"

(in reply to ShutUpNFish)

Post #: 100

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/8/2008 10:23:34 PM

formerguideII

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonnyfishon

I thank you guys for the edumacation. All these big words invective, laudable , prick. You guys are all full of knowledge and making a difference, Even I used this knowlege to make a better "sportsman" out of myself. I agree that you should not give out info on honey holes for the simple fact that that is half the fun. What is so hard about using the pm. This is for the members . I joined this site because I love fishing and arguing and busting balls. We should keep the specifics to the members only. From a to b is fine but to tell people the seems and the tailouts and exact location is plain dumb. Let them find it the way we all find holes. I find the people who dont want to put in the work to be a better fisherman are the ones that the landowners want off their land. I bet there are alot of asses reading these boards going , duud, theres fish at 2mile by the bridge next to the 2nd tree, lets get some beer , and crash the party duud. Next thing ya know theres 40 beer cans at your favorite hole that you might never fish again. Point is , use the privite message to send the goods to people you feel are true fisherman. I bet I wont get to many pm's, but that because Im a prick(those big words, gotta love em)

This may be my favorite post in years...

(in reply to jonnyfishon)

Post #: 101

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 10:07:48 AM

Bughawk

Posts: 5912
Status: offline

A couple of observations.... formerguide made an attempt to offer some sound advice which he has gained over many years fishing and working in the fishing industry. I honestly do not think there was an motive here but to inform the readers of what in his opinion and the opinion of most sportsman constitutes good conduct and ethics.

MackJ seemed to take offense at formerguide's "set of rules" and voiced his opinion, which he has a right to do.

The fun started with the accusations and counter accusations and name calling.....etc.....

A true sportsman cares about their sport. They over time have come to love and developed a desire to protect it and as such over that time period have come up with sets of rules of conduct. For someone who has not been in the sport, but for a short time, some of these rules seem silly or to have ulterior motives and do not think they are either necessary or apply to them. There are two ways to go here. First, accept the wisdom and knowledge of those sportsmen who have been in the sport for many years and try to live by the set of rules they developed. Second, ignore them and do as you please. It really is that simple.

Fishing the tribs has evolved a lot over the 20+ years I have fished for steelies, but the biggest change I have seen has been in the numbers of anglers and the rapid spread of information over the internet which I believe has directly contributed to the increase in anglers. With this massive influx of anglers has come more pressure and stress on the fishery, more conflicts between anglers, more conflicts between anglers and landowners, more poaching, etc... As such to alleviate the problems rules have evolved. While no individual or group of individuals sat down and codified the rules, they have sprung out of necessity and common sense, tempered by experience and a desire to get along with those other anglers and landowners with whom we all share the creeks. The rules are not binding, legal or even enforceable, they are a matter of conscience.

The bottom line for me is what I am doing all about me and my needs and desires, or am I participating in a sport with fellow sportsman and sportswoman and will my actions only feed my desires and wants or will they support the fishery and protect it? If you are truly honest with yourself you will realize we all have some level of selfish desire to catch fish, but we need to look past that to realize what we do while on the streams or on the internet have an effect on that fishery and not only our ability to ultilize it, but on the entire sport and all who enjoy it. It is then that you will understand the fishery and the sport is not just about us as individuals, but it is a community of people who gather to share in an experience we all love.

I try to tell myself everytime I step onto the stream to remember I am sharing this resource with a lot of people and my experience of it is not only about me catching fish, but is also about enjoying my time there with those who share my love of the sport. What I do as an individual matters not only to me, but everyone else.

< Message edited by Bughawk -- 8/9/2008 10:08:48 AM >

_____________________________

pax vobiscum +

(in reply to formerguideII)

Post #: 102

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 10:36:15 AM

Inukshuk

Posts: 1376
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline

Thanks Bug, I think most anglers agree with your perspective of fishing etiquette. Unfortunately there are always those few that will not, or just dont care(not pointing to any one in particular on this thread) to practice conscientious stream side behavior. Along with this particular state of mind I think we must also practice tolerance. There are those that do not understand or know of a fishing etiquette. I sometimes find myself so focused on fishing, watching my indicator for the slightest twitch, reading the stream and trying to think like a steelhead (which comes easy because of my brain size) for example, that I block out those around me. No one is perfect. I would appreciate a liitle tolerance in this situation, and would certainly apologize when I realize my wrong doing.

< Message edited by Inukshuk -- 8/9/2008 3:11:32 PM >

(in reply to Bughawk)

Post #: 103

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 10:44:34 AM

ShutUpNFish

Posts: 1135
Joined: 3/16/2007
Status: offline

Inukshuk

Funny you mention that, because I'm the same exact way.....I am so enthrawled into what I'm doing when I'm up there, that I pay little attention to whatever else is going on around me. Unless, of course, I have my daughter with me or someone who is just starting out...I usually pay more attention to what they are doing and ensure that I could help them out in any way. It all boils down to ONE thing when comes to etiquette....RESPECT. And this has been said time and again. We all KNOW it, but not ALL always practice it!

_____________________________

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
-Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to Inukshuk)

Post #: 104

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 12:51:03 PM

indsguiz

Posts: 2015
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline

Gentlemen,
Now here's an interesting thought. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, MackJ wants to see more and more people fishing jammed into small locations on private property. Maybe he wants to see more land posted because of overcrowding. And maybe he has a different motive for wanting this to happen. He has admitted that he has fished with a "mentor" on "prviate property". Could this be translated as a "guide" on "posted property"? If so, who has the largest selection of posted peoperty on the tribs? Just my suspicious nature working overtime. Like I said It's all a "maybe"; he has yet to elaborate on his motives. Oh and BTW I have fished with a guide, and I have also had many mentors, and I have fished on private property (which is most of the tribs) but I've never wanted to destroy the very thing that I enjoy so much.

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Illigetimi None Carburundrum

(in reply to ShutUpNFish)

Post #: 105

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 2:08:46 PM

MackJ

Posts: 318
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline

No. The mentor was a friend who has more experience, and if I fish on private property, it is land open to the public. Additionally, I think I have been clear about my motives-- I want others to have the benefit of being able to ask questions, receive answers, and answer questions without artificial limitations put on them by others or without being shouted down and insulted as this thread forcefully demonstrates. Contrary to what you suppose, this would spread the pressure out by giving anglers looking for information many options rather than just heading to the mouths of Elk and Walnut with 70% of everyone else. The proposed ethic to which I object, on the other hand, concentrates pressure at the mouths and lower reaches and in the best-known upstream areas.

< Message edited by MackJ -- 8/9/2008 2:09:45 PM >

(in reply to indsguiz)

Post #: 106

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 2:38:00 PM

KJH807

Posts: 927
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: MackJ

... I have been clear about my motives-- I want others to have the benefit of being able to ask questions, receive answers, and answer questions without artificial limitations put on them by others or without being shouted down and insulted as this thread forcefully demonstrates. Contrary to what you suppose, this would spread the pressure out by giving anglers looking for information many options rather than just heading to the mouths of Elk and Walnut with 70% of everyone else. The proposed ethic to which I object, on the other hand, concentrates pressure at the mouths and lower reaches and in the best-known upstream areas.

people have stated time and time again... providing info is fine... just not exact/GPS location type info
if you want to get into specifics fine... use PMs
what is so wrong with that???

the only time people will "shout down and insult" is when they are called out
Mack-- you bit off more that you could chew and got your ass handed to you
for once people actually called you on your bullsh1t.... instead of dismissing you as "not getting it"
people (myself included) have give specific examples and challenges to you statements and you ignore them...

the mouths of elk and walnut are fine places for your first day
(you can see fish, you can see people catching fish, people will help you catch fish, there is a lot to learn)
its like taking a first time angler to a bluegill pond rather than a 400 acre lake
your guaranteed fast action and you want more

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 107

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 2:53:53 PM

MackJ

Posts: 318
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline

I think the behavior on this thread speaks loud and clear. I invite you to read each of my posts here. These declaration of victory and claims of defeat are not impressive.

(in reply to KJH807)

Post #: 108

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 2:58:37 PM

KJH807

Posts: 927
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: MackJ

I think the behavior on this thread speaks loud and clear. I invite you to read each of my posts here. These declaration of victory and claims of defeat are not impressive.

i have... and actually posted a thread from last year
you have never offered anything of substance...

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 109

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 6:22:07 PM

MackJ

Posts: 318
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline

(in reply to KJH807)

Post #: 110

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 7:35:20 PM

indsguiz

Posts: 2015
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline

MackJ,
    I checked and yes you have made some good arguments on various occasions. My post was to see if you would respond in a positive manner. I believe fully in your right and anybody elses' to acquire information. The biggest point that many of us on here make is that all the information is available if a person just does some personal research. That's all! I would be glad to also fish with you some time and maybe I can learn from you and possibly you from me. It's just that you have to walk slow, cause I don't walk too good now days.
    I know I only speak for myself when I say I have learned a lot of very good GENERAL information which I applied to my fishing the tribs just by reading and discussing subjects on these posts. What I hate is when people ask over and over and over where the fish are, where can I find a "private" place to fish and what bait should I use. After the 500th time when people don't do any research on their own it's like a PITA.
    I will extend a personal invite to you to attend the "One Fly" and I will partner with you to show that there are no hard feelings.

_____________________________

Illigetimi None Carburundrum

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 111

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 7:45:25 PM

ShutUpNFish

Posts: 1135
Joined: 3/16/2007
Status: offline

This is ALL getting quite redundant!

_____________________________

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
-Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to indsguiz)

Post #: 112

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 7:51:52 PM

MackJ

Posts: 318
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline

Thanks for the invite, but fishing with MackJ is not possible. I am a figment.

(in reply to ShutUpNFish)

Post #: 113

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 8:38:10 PM

jonnyfishon

Posts: 1263
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MackJ

Thanks for the invite, but fishing with MackJ is not possible. I am a figment.

And a bit of a prick I might add. Hey , it takes one to know one. I dont like using big words that often, I jump at the chance.

(in reply to MackJ)

Post #: 114

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 8:39:08 PM

jonnyfishon

Posts: 1263
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline

Disregard the happy face.

(in reply to jonnyfishon)

Post #: 115

RE: Some thoughts on steelheading and the upcoming seas... - 8/9/2008 9:11:32 PM

jonnyfishon

Posts: 1263
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MackJ

I think the behavior on this thread speaks loud and clear. I invite you to read each of my posts here. These declaration of victory and claims of defeat are not impressive.

original;MACKJ
I thought the grammar lesson was well-taken and appropriate, and an effort was made to lighten the mood while still conveying the valid point, which is-- although spelling and grammar ERRORS are and should be overlooked, a post requesting assistance from others should show a minimum amount of care to communicate clearly and effici