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leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 7:39:33 PM   
orvis09

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		I need some help on understanding how to tie my own leaders. i have a 6/7 wt reel if that matters, i'll be fishing mostly steel with it for now so lets just figure that leader out first. i've read several of the threads on this board and googled it to death. i just can't understand whats going on. stiff butts, .20 diameter?????

all i'm looking for is the simple explanation:
for example:

3ft of 12lb
2ft of 8lb
2ft of 6lb
then tie the tippet

maybe its just me and i'm not getting it or maybe some of these sites are just a little to scientific about it.

any help will be appreciated guys, thanks

talk slow, so not to confuse me.
Post #: 1
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 7:54:06 PM   
Flyguy638


Posts: 111
Joined: 10/23/2008
Status: offline 		http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbetter/leadercalc/

(in reply to orvis09)
Post #: 2
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 7:56:45 PM   
dru2112


Posts: 1331
Joined: 10/24/2007
From: indiana, pa
Status: offline 		in my opinion, you throw out all the scientifics of leader diameter, etc.  i stick to one simple formula, one that is in nagy's steelhead guide.   since you say you will primarily use it for steel, here it is.  all you need for this leader is sunset amnesia in 25, and maxima chameleon in 20, 15, and 8.

nail knot a 12-15 inch section of the amnesia to the fly line, then tie a perfection loop in the other end.  use a loop to loop connection and connect a 15 inch piece of 20 lb, then double surgeon knot a 10 inch piece of 15 lb to that.  finally, double surgeon knot a piece of 10 inch of 8 lb to that.  not that hard, then you tie on your tippet.  i personally like to use another perfection loop to tie my tippet on.  i usually have about 3 ft of tippet.

(in reply to orvis09)
Post #: 3
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 8:06:58 PM   
Esox_Hunter


Posts: 805
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Dru, thats gonna only be about a 7' leader which is a little short IMO. I generally match my leader to my rod for nymphing, with my 10' rod I like to fish a 9.5-10.5' leader.

Check out the Salmon leader configuration at this site(listed below), it is my go to when I am tying my own. I also use the Harvey all around long leader listed towards the bottom. If you desire a different final tippet size, shift everything to the left one place for a heavier final tippet; shift to the right for a lighter final tippet.

http://www.flyfisherman.com/skills/50formulas.pdf

< Message edited by Esox_Hunter -- 10/21/2009 8:08:11 PM >

(in reply to dru2112)
Post #: 4
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 8:24:09 PM   
dru2112


Posts: 1331
Joined: 10/24/2007
From: indiana, pa
Status: offline 		when steelhead fishing, i like to have as short as a leader as possible.  i stick between 7.5 and 8.5 feet usually.  but that's me.
my rod is 9.6 also.

(in reply to Esox_Hunter)
Post #: 5
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 8:46:12 PM   
anadromous

 

Posts: 3051
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: online 		A friend recommended this one...
Start with 10 inches of 2x at the butt.
Next 3 feet of 1x
now another 3 foot section of 1x.
Last 18 to 24 of your tippet material.
This is a dedicated nymph rig. The thin butt section acts to easily "hinge" the leader downward with little weight(opposed to 25lb that takes much more to pull through the column)
Next the Knot connecting the two pieces of 1x acts as a good indicator stop and "measure mark for exacting depth adjustment(in short a reference point)
Last by using a surgeons knot to join the tippet to the 1x you create a nice area above the flies for weight (eliminates sliding and weight impingement on light tippet that comprimises the strength)
I use it a bunch for Big water nymphing and it gets flies down quickly with minimal drag and easy mending...Hope it helps.

< Message edited by anadromous -- 10/21/2009 8:50:48 PM >

(in reply to dru2112)
Post #: 6
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 9:07:57 PM   
steely34


Posts: 350
Status: offline 		Nice rig anadromous. I'll be tryin that one -- thanks alot for the tip!

_____________________________

Erie Steelheading - so much water to fish - so little time left in life.



(in reply to anadromous)
Post #: 7
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 9:18:11 PM   
Esox_Hunter


Posts: 805
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		anad, good stuff man, 2 good ideas in 2 days from you

I do have a question for you though; why 2x then 1x and not vise-versa?

The primary reason I prefer longer leaders for nymphing is so that I have more fine diameter line present in my leader. I do this to limit the contribution of the heavier diameter lines to prevent its negative impacts as you stated. The more I think about it, there really isn't much of a reason to include 20 or 25# line to the butt section on your leader, especially for indicator nymphing. I guess its time to get out of the limestoner mentality and start fishing shorter leaders for steel per your suggested formula.

(in reply to steely34)
Post #: 8
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 9:26:01 PM   
Steeler Fan

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 11/16/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for the information.  As a beginner, I have had problems with leaders in the past.  This thread has really given insight into leaders. I am glad to here you recommend the surgeon knot.  Others have told me to use the blood knot which I have trouble with.  I have also read in the orvis book that the triple surgeon is stronger than the blood knot.

(in reply to steely34)
Post #: 9
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 9:45:43 PM   
anadromous

 

Posts: 3051
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: online 		It is the thin 2x 10 inch piece that allows the heavier mid section to pull it straight down.(ie hinge joint) On a tapered leader the very end of the leader and lightest by nature must work to pull the rest of the bulkier rear taper downward. Weight then needs to be more excessive to get the job done. With the hinge joint being smaller in diameter it does not "support the rest of the leader thus allowing it to "plummet" quickly and more precisley(straight down) which in theory is not acted on by micro currents keeping the fly where you want it. Since the tapered leader is affected more by drag, it can be "moved"around more by currents as it slowly and "at an angle" decends. When casting above an exposed midstream rock you can get the flies to track along the rock and into the cavitation zone behind the rock. With the tapered lead it may take several more attempts to do the same thing because the quicker current takes the leader and the flies on a ride of its own. Sorry about the long wind here but...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

anad, good stuff man, 2 good ideas in 2 days from you

I do have a question for you though; why 2x then 1x and not vise-versa?

The primary reason I prefer longer leaders for nymphing is so that I have more fine diameter line present in my leader. I do this to limit the contribution of the heavier diameter lines to prevent its negative impacts as you stated. The more I think about it, there really isn't much of a reason to include 20 or 25# line to the butt section on your leader, especially for indicator nymphing. I guess its time to get out of the limestoner mentality and start fishing shorter leaders for steel per your suggested formula.


< Message edited by anadromous -- 10/21/2009 9:48:27 PM >

(in reply to Esox_Hunter)
Post #: 10
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 9:54:52 PM   
anadromous

 

Posts: 3051
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: online 		If the lines that you join are more than .002 in diameter difference then it is generally accepted that a surgeons works best. I use a bloods most often...When the water is a steely green, I will cheat...In this case tie on a black bird swivel to the end of the leader then attach tippet. It is easier when hands are cold, acts as a weight and has no affect on takes. Additionally in waters that prohibit tandems, a trout egg can be threaded on as an "attractor only" fly(minus a hook of course) and the blackbird acts as a stop.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steeler Fan

Thanks for the information.  As a beginner, I have had problems with leaders in the past.  This thread has really given insight into leaders. I am glad to here you recommend the surgeon knot.  Others have told me to use the blood knot which I have trouble with.  I have also read in the orvis book that the triple surgeon is stronger than the blood knot.


< Message edited by anadromous -- 10/22/2009 12:25:55 AM >

(in reply to Steeler Fan)
Post #: 11
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 9:56:24 PM   
Esox_Hunter


Posts: 805
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks anad for the clarification, although I may need a few cold ones to absorb all of that.

(in reply to anadromous)
Post #: 12
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/21/2009 10:01:47 PM   
anadromous

 

Posts: 3051
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: online 		Why is it easier to down a beer out of a pilsner glass as opposed to a long neck??
Because the narrow taper is at the butt of the glass allowing an easy slide into your pie hole...the bottle gets choked up at the neck taking more time to fill the same pie hole...hence the 2x first. ;)
quote:

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

Thanks anad for the clarification, although I may need a few cold ones to absorb all of that.


< Message edited by anadromous -- 10/21/2009 10:02:37 PM >

(in reply to Esox_Hunter)
Post #: 13
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/22/2009 1:05:21 PM   
6point7


Posts: 253
Joined: 8/28/2008
From: Erie Pa.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anadromous

Why is it easier to down a beer out of a pilsner glass as opposed to a long neck??
Because the narrow taper is at the butt of the glass allowing an easy slide into your pie hole...the bottle gets choked up at the neck taking more time to fill the same pie hole...hence the 2x first. ;)

Now even I can understand that. Thankyou Mr. Dromous.



(in reply to anadromous)
Post #: 14
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/22/2009 4:00:58 PM   
Loomis


Posts: 1610
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Delmont, PA
Status: offline 		20 lb Amnesia, 20-15-10 lb Maxima Chameleon triple uni knotted, 6 inches Maxima Ultragreen "Adapter", Handshake Connection, Tippet.




_____________________________

http://www.laurelridgerods.com

"I am by no means the most logical and educated person about fly fishing, but I will share with you what I know"

(in reply to 6point7)
Post #: 15
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/22/2009 4:16:12 PM   
orvis09

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		thanks for the explanations and ideas. knew i could count on you

(in reply to Loomis)
Post #: 16
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/22/2009 6:36:56 PM   
strandman220

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 7/20/2008
Status: offline 		anadromous.
Interesting idea with the butt section being smaller then the next link. I was wondering what your tactic is when fishing this set up. If you are fishing with an indicator.It wouldnt seem to matter. The only concern there would be the sink rate from indictor to fly. Also if you are fishing right of your leader aka hi sticking it wouldnt seem to matter. Very interested in how you fish this leader. Thanks in advance.

(in reply to orvis09)
Post #: 17
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/22/2009 7:08:44 PM   
troutslammer

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline 		i used to think leaders were very important until i saw a kid i went up to erie with this year for the first time , he put 8lb mono perfection looped to his fly line , and caught 8-10 steel in gin clear water , he said if u know how to fish the fish only see your fly , he is a guide out in colorado

(in reply to strandman220)
Post #: 18
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/22/2009 7:30:26 PM   
dano


Posts: 3011
Joined: 9/21/2000
Status: offline 		 I've been tying my own leaders for quite some time and prefer shorter Maxima 3 & 4 pc leaders for steel.
Lately I've gone back to short 5ft Rio knotless tapered leaders and add a tippet to it if I'm nymphing.

Dennis, I'm going to give your formula a try.
Do you think it would turn over well enough, throwing a weighted #8 nymph out 30 ft through a 6ft deep run?  

(in reply to troutslammer)
Post #: 19
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/22/2009 8:44:52 PM   
mook14

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 12/24/2006
Status: offline 		I only used knotless tapered leaders,but after reading this it seems hand tied give you more control of your drift.Looks like I'm going to need to learn to tie some knots. thanks guys

(in reply to dano)
Post #: 20
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/22/2009 10:09:34 PM   
mossy oak


Posts: 1097
Joined: 10/13/2003
Status: offline 		I go straight 6 lb off the fly line for about 8ft then tie on whatever "tippet" i deem necessary.  Usually either around 4lb maxima in winter months or now either 5x or 6x orvis mirage.  No problems getting hits or holding fish....unless i have to use the 6x.

MO

_____________________________

Byahn loves sax of all kinds

Krott says, "MO, Byahn is up around the bend molesting the chrome with his sax again"

Proud to be one of Loopy's Lunatics

(in reply to mook14)
Post #: 21
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/23/2009 9:01:21 AM   
trackerz

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Im used Nagy's fomula that is mentioned above last year with great success.  Taht being said one day I left my lesders out of my pack and just tied on 8" of #8 mono and tippet and caught fish.  Go figure.

(in reply to mossy oak)
Post #: 22
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/23/2009 2:13:55 PM   
Flash


Posts: 28
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Indiana, PA
Status: offline 		Wow, this has blown my mind. I am 31 yrs old, have fished ever since i can remember and about 5 or 6 years ago decided to try fly fishing, so i went out and bought a good rod and reel. I asked around about leaders no one ever said anything about different sizes let alone 3 sections.  Ive always bought the tapered 9' leaders and never had any problem catching fish, even in clear conditions, on my own flies.  I just always tied some tippet to the end of the leader and let her fly.     Man, have i got alot to learn

_____________________________

My biggest worry is that my wife (when I'm dead) will sell my fishing gear for what I said I paid for it.

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Post #: 23
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/23/2009 8:01:09 PM   
Steeler Fan

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 11/16/2008
Status: offline 		Could someone also explain to me the difference between tippet size and pound test.  It seems there is no consistencey between a (example) 3X tippet material from one company to another (Rio 8lb vs Maxima 5lb). In the above example using 1X and 2X what would the pound test of these be or does it matter? Is it the idea of having the lighter leader material first followed by the heavier?

(in reply to Flash)
Post #: 24
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/24/2009 6:41:11 PM   
troutslammer

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline 		 what anadromous was saying is that he uses a lighter tippet (higher #) for the butt sections so it pulls down in the water column fast with less drag (thinner line ) and no not all companys have the same lb test rating for their tippets of the same size, you have to be carefull knotting tippets and line with the diameters so the knots hold and tells u what knot to use , correct me if i am wrong here anadromous

(in reply to Steeler Fan)
Post #: 25
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/24/2009 7:40:34 PM   
Esox_Hunter


Posts: 805
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steeler Fan

Could someone also explain to me the difference between tippet size and pound test.  It seems there is no consistencey between a (example) 3X tippet material from one company to another (Rio 8lb vs Maxima 5lb). In the above example using 1X and 2X what would the pound test of these be or does it matter? Is it the idea of having the lighter leader material first followed by the heavier?


All leader material and tippet is standardized by diameter and not strength.  There really is no correlation between pound test and diameter as you have noticed between manufacturers. 

I am not sure what anad is using, but I use a hard mono like Maxima to construct the heavier sections of my leader.  Strength won't be an issue in your "butt" section of the leader.  I use rio powerflex or fluoroflex for my final tippet section, both of them have a high strength to diameter ratio.

(in reply to Steeler Fan)
Post #: 26
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/24/2009 9:47:57 PM   
Steeler Fan

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 11/16/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info. Still trying to learn since this is my first year of fly fishing.  Picking things up every day.  This forum is very beneficial.

(in reply to Esox_Hunter)
Post #: 27
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/25/2009 9:57:52 AM   
pikepredator2

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 5/14/2009
Status: offline 		Orvis, ever try tying all these different size leaders on at streamside, with cold, numb fingers? Depending on which section of your leader breaks this can be very annoying and time consuming. Keep it simple. I carry 4 spools of line in 4, 6 and 8 lb test and use according to stream conditions. I also carry a 6lb tippet material with me for really difficult fishing situations and will tie on as needed.  Tie 9 ft of say 6 lb. off your fly line, and as it gets shorter use a very small barrel swivel to attach more, this saves on replacing your entire length of line from the end of your fly line. No problem catching steel using this method, and with a whole lot less aggrevation.

(in reply to Steeler Fan)
Post #: 28
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/26/2009 9:31:27 AM   
Cold


Posts: 3985
Joined: 3/27/2008
From: Latrobe, PA
Status: offline 		pike,

For steelhead fishing in which you dont have to actually cast, that will work, but have you ever tried turning over a non-tapered leader?

A just-as-simple alternative:

Buy a few knotless tapered leaders, fluoro if you prefer, in an appropriate strength. Tie a perfeciton loop in the end, and then attach tipped by tying a perfection loop in the tippet, and using a loop-to-loop. When the tippet gets short, replace it.

Just as simple, and if you actually have to cast, it'll turn over for you.

_____________________________

no

(in reply to pikepredator2)
Post #: 29
RE: leader tying confusion - 10/26/2009 10:58:18 AM   
anadromous

 

Posts: 3051
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: online 		I use Rio flouroflex plus for this application...sink rate is good. I fish it with an indicator in deep water, and without in shallow water. Additionally the system can be made more advantages by going with a 3x (9.2)Seaguar Gr maxFX and 2x(12.5)
quote:

ORIGINAL: strandman220

anadromous.
Interesting idea with the butt section being smaller then the next link. I was wondering what your tactic is when fishing this set up. If you are fishing with an indicator.It wouldnt seem to matter. The only concern there would be the sink rate from indictor to fly. Also if you are fishing right of your leader aka hi sticking it wouldnt seem to matter. Very interested in how you fish this leader. Thanks in advance.



< Message edited by anadromous -- 10/26/2009 11:05:14 AM >

(in reply to strandman220)
Post #: 30
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