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disturbing... - 7/13/2008 9:39:28 AM

KJH807

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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08195/896725-358.stm

given the source... DW is as smart as a bag of hammers

disturbing stats
- 60% want to use bait on current artificial only sections
- over 50% support stocking over wild fish

thoughts?

Post #: 1

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 9:51:30 AM

Grendel

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Interesting article!

I have always been in support of stocking (Trout) in areas that receive little, if any, Trout during the year. For example, in those waters that are currently holding very large recreational fish (eg. slimers), why place them puny fish in there? Take those small fish and put them in another location. Sort of spread the wealth.

I agree with what you pointed out KJH - bothersome indeed.

Doc

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Science like nature
Must also be tamed
With a view towards its preservation
Given the same state of integrity
It will surely serve us well ~ NP

(in reply to KJH807)

Post #: 2

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 10:42:35 AM

joebaker79

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I would reserve the word disturbing for many other things besides a fishing survey, but thats just me. I could care less about the trout stocking program outside of steelhead and maybe the yough so I cant really provide any input that is unbiased. I do not believe there should be any areas that restrict any type of fishing. Whether its trout on the yough or steelhead I will use bait, lures, jigs, and flies in a 1 hour span. Sometimes just one all day. I understand the fly fishermen's argument of keeping these areas but it just puts un-needed restrictions in place that keep people from fishing. A hook is a hook is a hook. It is much tougher for a kid to take up fly fishing and I know that there are a few of these areas where there is not much other trout fishing to be done besides the fly fishing only areas. Some even outside of Philly where there are not many oppurtunities at all. And those restrictions are on completely stocked waters.....doesnt add up to me. Stock the crap out of a stream and tell the fishermen how they can and cannot fish?

As much as we all want our fishing with as little company as possible we need licenses bought by as many as possible. We need more poeple taking up fishing, not less. Restrictions on the type of fishing that can be done are past their time. I would rather they put in a barbless hooks rule.

(in reply to Grendel)

Post #: 3

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 11:34:20 AM

Slate_Drake_9

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Beyond the fact that way more fish are hooked deeply and die as a result of bait fishing than fly fishing and spin fishing:

My biggest concern about allowing bait fishing in fly fishing only areas is the garbage that so many bait fishermen leave behind. Take a tour of fly fishing only waters and look around. The majority are pretty clean, usually at most you find some short sections of discarded mono and the odd cans, bottles, toilet paper and ciggarette packages that are found everywhere slobs go. Then take a tour of the areas that bait fishermen are permitted and look around. You can usually fill a 5 gallon bucket full of styrofoam and plastic from bait containers and plastic and cardboard from hook packages. The artificial lures only sections typically fall in between, as there are a lot of spin fishers who think that the ground is a good place to put lure packages after they remove their lures and long balls of mono "decorate" too many shrubs and trees.

To me, that is enough of a reason to allow the folks who don't seem to pollute their playgrounds as much to keep them.

My other thought about this is this. I'll use Potter County as an example, since I now live here, but it is true in pretty much all areas of the state. In Potter County there are about 750 miles of trout streams (they say, I haven't fished them all and probably never will). Out of all of those miles of trout streams, there is about a mile and a half of water that you can only fish by fly fishing and about another 4-5 miles of artificial lures only water, totaling at most 6-7 miles out of 750 that bait fishermen cannot fish with bait.

Are these guys so darn greedy that they need to be allowed to to fish 750 miles of stream instead of 743 miles? Come on. These guys need to stop worrying about the tiny percentage of water they cannot fish with bait and start worrying about how they are making their playgrounds look like garbage dumps.

Just my two cents.

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Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.

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Post #: 4

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 11:51:48 AM

S-10

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Sooo---If when I get to my favorite stream and pull out my noodle rod and a pack of salted minnies I am a slob fisherman with no concern for the resource but if I pull out my fly rod instead along with a box of streamers I am one of the elite class of enviromentally minded sport fisherman. Talk about narrow minded

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Post #: 5

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:06:34 PM

SteelyShawn

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S-10,

I think the truth is is that slob bait fisherman have more oppotunities to litter due to their tackle versus slob flyfisherman. I do notice when I see lots of trash it is at put and take streams vs. FFO and DHALO. Their are also many bait guys that I see collecting their trash when they are leaving. I am a smoker unfortunately and trying to quit, however when I am fishing I put my butts in a camera case. I see a lot of fly fishermen and spin fishermen alike just throw them in the water. Which upsets me.

Fact is is that bait fishermen who release fish have a 50% chance of killing the fish. Flys are something like less than 8% I think. I think they have enough streams to fill their stringers!!!!

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Somebody just back of you while you are fishing is as bad as someone looking over your shoulder while you write a letter to your girl. ~Ernest Hemingway

(in reply to S-10)

Post #: 6

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:10:40 PM

Slate_Drake_9

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quote:

ORIGINAL: S-10

Sooo---If when I get to my favorite stream and pull out my noodle rod and a pack of salted minnies I am a slob fisherman with no concern for the resource but if I pull out my fly rod instead along with a box of streamers I am one of the elite class of enviromentally minded sport fisherman. Talk about narrow minded

Lets talk about narrow minded. You're statement is a good example. Nowhere did I state that all baitfishermen are slob fishermen, nor did I state that you are a slob fisherman, but I don't know you and you may be. I stated that areas that allow bait fishing are much more dirty than those that do not. AND, I infered that the majority of the litter along streams that allow bait fisherman must come from bait fishermen because the likelyhood of non-bait fishermen leaving behind empty bait and hook packages is very low. I have yet to see a fly fisher leave behind an empty bait container or hook packaging and I have yet to see a fly fishing only section of a stream as dirty as the "open" water on the same stream.

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Post #: 7

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:19:54 PM

KJH807

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my concern is the idea of stocking fish over a wild population (remember donny beaver?)
PA has a great resource of native and wild fish... why stock pellet-heads that will push out theses populations

i would also agree that the Special reg (dhalo & dhff) areas are on average cleaner than the open areas

generally speaking C&R is much less likely with live bait than artificial

(in reply to S-10)

Post #: 8

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:20:54 PM

S-10

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Let me play devils advocate for a minute. You are still suggesting that somehow fly fishermen take better care of the stream and kill less fish than bait fishermen. Even though both types of fishermen pay the same for a license and have equal opportunity to fish for the same fish with the tackle of their choice You believe the flyfisherman should have special sections of various streams set aside for their exclusive use. Isn't that exactly what Donny Beaver believes and is trying to do? He sure is getting a lot of resistance from folks now suggesting the same thing for themselves.

(in reply to Slate_Drake_9)

Post #: 9

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:23:07 PM

KJH807

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelyShawn

Fact is is that bait fishermen who release fish have a 50% chance of killing the fish. Flys are something like less than 8% I think. I think they have enough streams to fill their stringers!!!!

the article reads that on 3% fish mainly for food...

(in reply to SteelyShawn)

Post #: 10

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:34:47 PM

Slate_Drake_9

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As far as I'm concerned, if the state makes an equal amount of bait fishing only stretches of water as they have artificial lures/fly fishing only that would be fine and dandy. The catch is that they would have to be either catch and release or delayed harvest in the same numbers as the DHALO and FFO sections.

In fact, I wish they would, so there would be the possibility of researching this crap and using science instead of social norms and money to make decisions. (Yes, I know that money will always be the determining factor. That is why they will never open trout season year around. They'll not sell the licenes to the folks who only fish the opening weekend, which is a large number supposedly.)

_____________________________

Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.

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Post #: 11

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:51:37 PM

S-10

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Catch and release doesn't affect me as I don't keep enough to talk about anyway. However-- native streams aside--what is the problem with people who enjoy eating fish keeping them on stocked streams? In most places it is a put and take fishery anyway. As for fly fishermen being easier on the fish, I have lost track of how many times I have had to get out of the tribs so one of the elite could chase a tail hooked steelhead down the stream and fight him to exhaustion because he was too cheap to break off the fly. I don't suppose being netted or drug up on the bank tail first is hard on a fish. BTW--If your really not narrow minded you might want to consider changing the caption at the bottom of your posts

(in reply to Slate_Drake_9)

Post #: 12

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:57:52 PM

Bughawk

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One issue that has not been addressed is difference in fly fishing and bait fishing which deals with skill and knowledge of the fish behavior. I both fly fish and bait fish. When it comes to fly fishing there is way more that you need to know in order to be successful. To fool a wary trout with a fly is a different thing than to dangle a minnow in their face. What this means is if you choose to take up fly fishing, you have a steeper learning curve in order to be consistently successful.

The other difference is in the level of commitment most of the fly fisherman I know. This comes partly from the steeper learning curve, but also from the fact that fly fishing gear usually costs a lot more than spinning gear. If you are going to get serious about fly fishing it is going to cost you in time and money, especially if you also decide to get into fly tying.

Please do not misunderstand what I am saying. Fly fisherman are not inherently better fisherman, or necessarily more commited to fishing than bait fisherman, but there are fewer casual fly fisherman given what it takes to be successful, so they tend to be more involved in the sport. Anyone with a modest investment can litterally hit the streams with a rod and reel, some bait and be successful. This means that bait fishing is open to a larger number of people and as such with a larger pool of people, there will be a larger number of fisherman who are slobs.

The type of fishing has little to do with who will or will not be a slob.

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Post #: 13

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 12:58:28 PM

KJH807

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what about the idea of stocking over wild fish???

i think lake erie tribs don't really apply to this discussion...

(in reply to S-10)

Post #: 14

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 1:05:59 PM

S-10

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KJ--not sure I (totally) agree as there has been a lot of debate on how large a wild population of Steelhead we have and should some streams be left for natural breeding. I think the concesus has been most streams have a limited amount of sutitable habatat and too many fishermen

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Post #: 15

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 1:17:32 PM

KJH807

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quote:

ORIGINAL: S-10

KJ--not sure I (totally) agree as there has been a lot of debate on how large a wild population of Steelhead we have and should some streams be left for natural breeding. I think the concesus has been most streams have a limited amount of sutitable habatat and too many fishermen

i'm talking about waterways with self sustaining populations of WILD fish that people think that PFBC should start stocking
i would guess that the tribs are 0.1% of all trout waters in the state (and that generous)
most erie tribs aren't even approved trout water... a list that is very easy to make

those discussions about wild erie steelhead in PA are usually someone playing devils advocate...
it is a put and take fishery
how many cohos are caught now that they aren't stocked?? 10 a year? hardly a fishery...

in terms of PA trout... erie isn't even a factor...

< Message edited by KJH807 -- 7/13/2008 1:18:08 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 1:28:52 PM

Slate_Drake_9

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

what about the idea of stocking over wild fish???

I think this idea needs some science behind it. There isn't a stream in my area that doesn't have wild trout in it somewhere between it's headwaters and mouth. BUT, without stocking, many of these streams are not really worth fishing, as there may be a 3 inch trout every couple of hundred yards to fish for, but they are there. Some of these streams have great populations of brookies throughout their lengths, but a 6 inch fish is a wall hanger in most of these waters.

Now move down to the State College area and 5 pound stream bread browns are common.

Now go to the Little J and remove all of the fingerling stockings that happen every fall and see how many fish are left from just spawning in that river. Who knows? But it does have the rep. of being one of the best wild trout fisheries in the state, but how many of them started as stocked trout?

All of the above are considered wild trout streams in a sense, minus the Little J to me, but which ones should be stocked?

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Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.

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Post #: 17

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 1:39:09 PM

chrisrowboat

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The projects I think need to be explained are Catch and Release Only. I would be in favor of making ALL the streams in Pennsylvania C&R. With this type of management there would always be fish to catch and the stocking levels could be reduced. Chris

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Post #: 18

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 1:44:16 PM

KJH807

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chrisrowboat

The projects I think need to be explained are Catch and Release Only. I would be in favor of making ALL the streams in Pennsylvania C&R. With this type of management there would always be fish to catch and the stocking levels could be reduced. Chris

i'll second that... or at least say more C&R, Artificial only, and single hook point (spin or fly)
but how do you have anglers practice tech that allow for the SAFE release o fish?

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Post #: 19

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 1:45:36 PM

Slate_Drake_9

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quote:

ORIGINAL: S-10
BTW--If your really not narrow minded you might want to consider changing the caption at the bottom of your posts

As far as that making me narrow minded, how does having a belief and being willing to stand by it make someone narrow minded? I'm willing to listen to other's opinions, but at the end of the day, they're just opinions. Come to me with facts and I am willing to change my beliefs, as are most reasonable people.

I've presented facts from my experiences on many trout streams throughout the mid Atlantic region.

Can you say the same?

We all know the saying about opinions.

_____________________________

Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.

Slate Drake

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Post #: 20

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 1:49:56 PM

Slate_Drake_9

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chrisrowboat

The projects I think need to be explained are Catch and Release Only. I would be in favor of making ALL the streams in Pennsylvania C&R. With this type of management there would always be fish to catch and the stocking levels could be reduced. Chris

I agree 100% on streams that maintain enough cold water for fish to survive the summer. Sadly, there are a lot of streams that the fish die in because of too warm of water.

Catch and Release only regs created one of the best trout fisheries on the east coast, Spring Creek. The interesting thing is that Spring Creek became catch and release only because it was so polluted that the fish were not safe to eat, so the state didn't allow people to keep them.

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Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.

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Post #: 21

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 1:51:08 PM

chrisrowboat

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Donny Beaver effectively closes his water to 1 or 2 fisherman per-day(stocking and feeding his fish over wild fish ,too). How does Fly Fishing only regulations limit the numbers of fisherman on a particular stream? Catching fish is what kids want it really does not matter what kind. Chris

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Post #: 22

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 2:12:26 PM

Slate_Drake_9

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I think when fathers stop teaching their sons that you have to kill something to be a successful fisherman and the PAFBC stops catering to these types, then things will change for the better.

I'm not talking about the folks who keep a fish or two for a meal, but the ones that keep everything that they catch and then brag about how many of whatever they have in the freezer. These guys are the ones that are b!tching about not being able to find fish exactly where they are stocked, so the fish commission is looking at changing the way they stock streams to make them happy. These guys are the ones that the PAFBC doesn't want to loose money from by getting rid of opening day, because many of them only fish then and without and opening day they may not fish at all.

I'm so sick of social reasons being used where scientific reasons should be used to make policies.

_____________________________

Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.

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Post #: 23

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 3:47:15 PM

SteelyShawn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KJH807

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelyShawn

Fact is is that bait fishermen who release fish have a 50% chance of killing the fish. Flys are something like less than 8% I think. I think they have enough streams to fill their stringers!!!!

the article reads that on 3% fish mainly for food...

I was actually going by a couple of other articles. Not the one on here. But nice attention to detail.

Most fish 24 days a year on average that want this. I fish between 150-200 days out of the year. But when you look at it it doesn't matter b/c they pay the same for the license and stamp. Which completely sucks b/c these guys like to fish probably more in the spring when the fish are first stocked.

I for one don't like the idea of bait being used on spec. regs.. It is a fact that trout hold on to bait longer than they will a fly. I have seen it first hand and I stand behind what I previously said about 50% survival chance when using bait. Whenever I hook a trout it is either on the top of the mouth or in the corner. Not in the throat or stomach. Sorry, I respect the streams that are catch and release that allow bait, but I am not for having more of them.

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Somebody just back of you while you are fishing is as bad as someone looking over your shoulder while you write a letter to your girl. ~Ernest Hemingway

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Post #: 24

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 6:21:34 PM

pxatim

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[/quote]

Most fish 24 days a year on average that want this. I fish between 150-200 days out of the year. But when you look at it it doesn't matter b/c they pay the same for the license and stamp. Which completely sucks b/c these guys like to fish probably more in the spring when the fish are first stocked.

[/quote]

These were my exact thoughts. I love how they were called "avid" fishermen.

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Post #: 25

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 10:11:59 PM

pheasant tail 2

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I have been told a study was presented at the Coldwater Fisheries Conference this spring that showed mortality rates of trout C & R ed with bait is much lower than previously thought. I have not seen the study, nor do I know the source. Maybe someone can shed some light?

Take care

PT

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Post #: 26

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 10:32:21 PM

pxatim

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Another thought...

I love how PFBC only surveyed 1562 +/- out of 850,000 (.18%... not even 1%) licensed anglers to see "where they stand". To me this survey is meaningless and I hope they aren't seriously considering any of the results from it.

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Post #: 27

RE: disturbing... - 7/13/2008 11:04:10 PM

ShutUpNFish

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This says it all..."Seventy percent of Pennsylvania's 850,000 licensed anglers purchased trout or Lake Erie-trout "combo" stamps last year, generating more than $500 million in state revenue and $29.3 million for the Fish and Boat Commission, the survey said."

Amazing! Let the brainwashing continue!

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Post #: 28

RE: disturbing... - 7/14/2008 12:58:25 AM

chipmunk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelyShawn

Fact is is that bait fishermen who release fish have a 50% chance of killing the fish.

50% is probably a close average, but it doesn't have to be that way. An experienced bait angler can really pull that number down if they try too. I have some experience on this since I fish some small ponds on my property that when a fish dies in, I see it. If you pay attention and make a quick hookset it makes a huge difference. I hook my fish on the front of the mouth 95% of the time. Smaller hooks help too. A fish has a much easier time dealing with a 10 or 12 hook left in its mouth then a 4. Debarb them for easier faster removal but I dont think it truely makes a difference above that. Another thing that kills fish is trying to remove a swallowed hook. NEVER LIFT A FISH THAT HAS SWALLOWED THE HOOK BY THE LINE! Just net him and cut it and the fish will have a better chance. I kept one that swallowed a hook in a tank once and he passed it a week later unharmed. I would say I have only killed 1 in 50 of the fish I have released in those ponds. Current can sometimes raise that number by making bites harder to detect in time and the fact that fish in current swallow it quicker but I still think I do better then 50%. Everyone should strive to kill less fish when their not eating them!

Oh and I think that the special regs areas should remain bait free. Theres plenty of other water out there!

(in reply to SteelyShawn)

Post #: 29

RE: disturbing... - 7/14/2008 8:21:23 AM

joebaker79

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pxatim

Another thought...

I love how PFBC only surveyed 1562 +/- out of 850,000 (.18%... not even 1%) licensed anglers to see "where they stand". To me this survey is meaningless and I hope they aren't seriously considering any of the results from it.

Actually that is a great number for a survey. They cant survey everyone. Research and Surveying 101 will tell you 1562 is about four times the required number for an effective survey for pretty much about anything.

(in reply to pxatim)

Post #: 30

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