chuck n duck fly fishing changes

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chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 10/8/2008 4:29:38 PM

bassguide

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Hello I have a ? Last year fishing the lower fly fishing section i ran into numerous fly fishing gentleman rigged with a chuck and duck I understand that this was ok last year . I fly fish using tradtion fly methods is chuck and duck still legal .

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 10/8/2008 11:02:31 PM

cpswing

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not to sound like an idiot, but what is chuck and duck? Is it using a flyrod with weight?

CP

(in reply to bassguide)

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 10/8/2008 11:17:41 PM

NYFISHER

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you are correct CPSWING

some guys use lots of weight.

In other words, the weight propels the fly line instead of the fly line propelling the fly. No false casting involved.

It's the technique to use if you want to line the fish.

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 10/9/2008 7:59:22 PM

tippy-toe

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...and it is illegal as of now, see the "new regs for FFO zones" thread

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/2/2008 10:36:53 PM

Kingfisher101

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"chuck & duck" is not a technique for lining fish, just used by many individuals in the wrong manner to line fish, just as they do with casting fly line and spinning gear.

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/3/2008 8:10:07 AM

Catching Chrome

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Chuck and Duck = Snagging. IMHO.

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/3/2008 8:25:55 AM

Uncle Kevin

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It is a poor excuse for fly fishing and as Tippy points out is illegal in certain regulated areas.

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/3/2008 6:00:29 PM

Kingfisher101

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if you know anything about the chuck & duck technique, then you would know that a steelhead fly fisher, who's name is ray schmidt, came up with the idea back in the early 70's. if fished properly, this technique will allow you to achieve that perfect dead drift in deep slots, pools, etc.. this technique is deadly and will produce more fish than your traditional fly fishing technique period. fishing with mono, sink tips, floating line, sinking line, or chuck & duck will SNAG fish if chosen to do so. it's the individual behind the technique or stlye of fishing that brings the end result. when the water levels are low, i high stick, floating fly line out of the water with only the leader in, which is the same as chuck & duck..... hmmm maybe they should ban that too!

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/3/2008 6:25:27 PM

mikeg

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C & D flyfishing may not ne a tradition style for fly anglers, but it's a proven method for steelhead. For thise who think it's only for snagging are completely wrong.

I use this method often and I may snag about 3-5 fish a month.

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Post #: 9

RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/3/2008 8:06:18 PM

hot tuna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bassguide

Hello I have a ? Last year fishing the lower fly fishing section i ran into numerous fly fishing gentleman rigged with a chuck and duck I understand that this was ok last year . I fly fish using tradtion fly methods is chuck and duck still legal .

The regulations for the fly zones have changed in a manner to discourage C&D and promote a more traditional method. C&D became hugely popular due to the increasing crowds that fish the zones. It is, was, may still be tough to cast and maintain a drift or swing when people are standing on top of each other as it has become in the zones. So the popular C&D was the main method. Will things change with the new regs ? I doubt it seriously, I still see people that do not understand the reg. of the line is used to cast the fly, not the added weight. Many think if they can roll or back cast a bunch of weight it's OK , well that’s wrong.

Anyone here that thinks C&D is a snagging method , come on, be real.....
I assume you think this because of all the lined fish in the zones, right ?
Put some thought into why the fish are being lined, you dont think they wouldn't be if it were spinning equipment ?
I see the same things in the school house pool with all equipment.
It is no more a snagging method any more than any other fishing means.

What about this : a Hammer, it's a great tool, builds houses for aspiring young families. Now hey , that Junkie in the city just smashed a car window in with a Hammer so he could steal the stereo. Heck, now we should outlaw ALL hammers because they are used for robbery.
Again chill out on peoples fishing styles unless you know for fact how they are "hooking" not how they are "fishing".

one last thought......

take a 6wt or any wt. for that matter, WFF line. put it on the reel spool backwards, what do you have ?

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Post #: 10

RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 6:06:49 AM

waDerboy

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CnD is not a method that lines or snags fish. It can be used to do those things but so can any other method. When done properly, dead drift with a moderately short tippet, it SLOWLY covers deep holding fish structure, allowing lethargic fish a good chance to see and react to the fly. It is not the most classic of fly fishing styles but has it place anf time.

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Post #: 11

RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 11:57:05 AM

Catching Chrome

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeg

C & D flyfishing may not ne a tradition style for fly anglers, but it's a proven method for steelhead. For thise who think it's only for snagging are completely wrong.

I use this method often and I may snag about 3-5 fish a month.

And those are most likely the only fish you catch. :)

(in reply to mikeg)

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 6:23:27 PM

spoonchucker

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Another "purist" heard from

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Post #: 13

RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 6:28:57 PM

Neversink Jimmy

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With high water like the current conditions, wading a lot of sections in the LFZ and UFZ is damn near impossible...

So is a standard backcast...

That's where the Spey guys get a real advatnage getting streamers and flies way out there.

Chuck n' Duck just allows you to use fly gear without needing vast space behind you, or vast distances between anglers. The slinky keeps your leech or egg pattern down deep, and slowly bounces the deeper holes.

It's lethal- but what isn't... I've never once 'lined' a Steelie with that method, or any other.

The run of Salmon may be different with large pods of fish schooled up. But the Chromers and Browns are 'willy nilly' and covering a lot of water is crucual for success in challenging conditions.

I, for one, and happy that CnD is now prohibited in the Zones... But it sure isn't because of snagging!

Just leaves a little more room for the guys who want to toss sinking tip lines and take their chances on big Metalheads and Brownies in the upper reaches of the river.

Trust me, the fly line is back on my 9wt and ready for action! You can still use coneheads, etc or weighted egg-sucking leeches... You just cant attach an ounce of slinky weights to a running line and say you're 'fly fishing'.

But please oh please... Don't lump the CnD crowd in with the 'lifters'!!!

They are just using a great technique that greatly improves their catch rate given tough conditions, etc. And trust me, those Steelies get hooked in the MOUTH just like the Browns... It's the Kings and Cohos that get it in the back or tail!

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 7:05:14 PM

hot tuna

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Jimmy:

your right in most of your statement but if you spend enough time on the tribs. you will see it all and how it is done. It may not be obvious to the everyday angler but once it is pointed out it can be bright as day.

Now, I like the fact that it was a good idea to try to return to a traditional, yes shot is traditional, fly fishing. Will it ever work , again I seriously doubt it , people in general on that river system are greedy and resort to catching at all costs. Just fishing is not enough. Now, now, I said in general not specific.

Jimmy, those areas do stack up with steelhead and browns, just like the salmon. As I said, once you see the same people taking people fishing there day after day you get to know certain things.
Saying you never lined a trout is commendable but it happens, it happens to me, do I encourage or purposely do this NO! When it happens frequent then there is a problem with the set up, maybe too much weight, leader or drift. A good angler will adjust accordingly to avoid this, a poor angler will think it's a good day.

So finally, C&D is a fishing method just as all the rest of everything else used to pursue these migratory fish. A pure snagging , lining method ? Give me a BREAK!
Should it be used in the fly zones ? I always say enforce the current rules before making new ones but we all know what the results are.
I think the people who do not understand (or don't want to) are the biggest problems that occur on the Ontario tribs. not the regulations, they are just a matter of ethics. Until the Ethics change no rule will ever make it better.

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 7:28:59 PM

OldSalt

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Chuckin and Duckin, well if you need to use it, that's your choice. I don't care who started it or who used it way back when, probably because they could'nt catch fish or know how to catch fish any other way.

I can bring you to an Atlantic Salmon river where there are a 60+ fish holding in a pool, you can see them, but you still fish for them without throwing weight and spooking the whole pool. Not that it would be legal anyway.
C & D'in may have it's place in the SR, old habits die hard. The same technique is basically nymphing without all the weight.

You can catch Kings, Cohos, Atlantic's, Browns, Rainbows, Lakers in all flows, even in 2000 cfs without having to chuck and duck. Even in high flows you can hook up all day with one or two BB's, if you just cast and mend properly.

I've taken fisherman, taken most there weight off, and have them hook up in minutes. The extra weight only hangs you up and affects your drift. Sure most times you need weight on the SR, and at times you don't need weight.

But there is no doubt that chuckin and duckin is just an old habit on it's way out, maybe in a few years, maybe in ten or more years.

Anyway,

Tight lines,

OldSalt

< Message edited by OldSalt -- 11/4/2008 7:48:22 PM >

(in reply to hot tuna)

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 7:52:41 PM

hot tuna

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salt,
I mean no dis-respect but your talking apples to oranges between atlantic salmon fishing & steelhead.
C&D a method which I use ? nope, as said a fishing method that works for winter steelhead, yup. I don't tend to judge how one choses to fish as long as it is ethical with respect to the fish and surrounding people. I am just a content catching brookies on a worm and wobbler as a fly rod and streamer , which will work better at the time and how I feel like fishing will determine what method we use.
But to say one is right over the other is just not true.

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 8:15:00 PM

OldSalt

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Tuna,

Well, well, well....

the point is just because you see a large amount of fish holding in an area, there are manys ways to catch them without throwing tons of weight at them by C and D' in. We've all seen it time and time again, when you're on the river, a nice spot with fish, and along comes a couple of guy's, without even thinking, they just start blasting the fish with weight. Before you know it, the fish are all scattered or shell shocked and moving in circles.

Those same fish can be caught with very, very little weight. Absolutely no need for the C and D' in, but it's an old habit, that has been passed on as the best way to legally catch fish on the SR.

I'm not saying one is right over the other, I actually said, "if you need to use it, that's your choice". But in reality its not really needed, especially when it does affect the fish and surrounding fisherman.

Being that there is a good run of Atlantic's in the SR, I do compare their habits to the Steelie's(in the SR) and basically catch both with similar techniques.

As always,

Tight lines,

OldSalt

< Message edited by OldSalt -- 11/4/2008 9:01:05 PM >

(in reply to hot tuna)

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/4/2008 8:23:59 PM

hot tuna

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OldSalt:

Right On !

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/5/2008 1:13:55 AM

Kingfisher101

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if you can see a "large amount of fish holding" why in the world would anyone chuck a "ton of weight" at them? chuckin' doesn't require a ton of weight, a few bb's work just fine depending on the water speed which you are fishing and adjust accordingly. i've never used a slinky. so, what are your thoughts on casting shooting heads? i suppose that's not fly fishing?

(in reply to OldSalt)

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/5/2008 3:50:32 PM

spoonchucker

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Salt,

The scenario you put forth is not the situation where C&D should, or typically is used. I would never even consider it there. But in a deep fast pocket, depending on where the fish are laying no matter HOW well you mend, you will not get your flydown fast enough without SOME weight.

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/5/2008 5:30:26 PM

anadromous

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What is the weight cut off for chuck and duck...Just want to be sure before I fish again, heaven forbid, I break a code of ethics. Center pinners hog the holes, fly-fisherman are lifters, spin fisherman are archaic...hmmm, anyone up for hand-lining, gigging...I know, lets just let them swim and look at em, no harm done, no fingers in gills, no booting them to the bank, or leaving a fly in their back or netting them, holding them wrong, playing them too long, overfishing, overcrowding, powerbaiting, treble hooking, roping, choking, smoking, poking and now chucking and ducking...please. Just fish. If you need some weight to get it down...by all means put it on.

< Message edited by anadromous -- 11/5/2008 5:32:19 PM >

(in reply to spoonchucker)

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/5/2008 10:27:00 PM

NYFISHER

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anadromous

holding them wrong, playing them too long, roping, choking, smoking, poking

damm, sometimes I really miss my ex-wife.....

(in reply to anadromous)

Post #: 23

RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/6/2008 10:14:18 AM

anadromous

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I am still chucking and ducking my ex...

quote:

ORIGINAL: NYFISHER

quote:

ORIGINAL: anadromous

holding them wrong, playing them too long, roping, choking, smoking, poking

damm, sometimes I really miss my ex-wife.....

(in reply to NYFISHER)

Post #: 24

RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/6/2008 12:16:36 PM

Catching Chrome

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Ana, said it right, can't we just all get along. The real issue is how you conduct yourself when you snag a fish. Do you a) drag it in backwards, hooting and hollering and then put it on the chain or b) break it off and try and catch it the right way.

(in reply to anadromous)

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/6/2008 2:17:33 PM

Neversink Jimmy

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Thanks Andramadous...

My thoughts exactly, Brother!!!

Now back to these descriptions of ex-wives: keep 'em coming, and post pics please :)

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RE: chuck n duck fly fishing changes - 11/7/2008 9:41:02 AM

OldSalt

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spoonchucker,

I fully agree, but most of the times anglers already have their cannonballs rigged up and just start chuckin.

Sure you need to use weight, it really comes down to how much. As far as I'm aware, there are no restrictions on the amount of weight you can use on the unregulated areas of the SR, only on the location of the weight on the line/leader or tippet.

So anglers can use any amounts to get it down, even beyond reasonable, as we all have seen.

A normal approach would be to start with the least amount and go from there, but as I said, old habits die hard and for years and years the norm for the SR and tribs has been excessive weight.

I'm not knocking any one technique versus another, but within reason we all should realize that dredging the bottom and hammering/spooking fish isn't really fair game and ethical. Not to mention the fact that once a cannonball blaster comes along, the quality of fishing goes down dramatically.

Chuckin and Duckin implies the use of excessive weight, hence the term. Without the excessive weight, the technique is common high stick nymphing which has been around for quite awhile.

Tight lines,

OldSalt

< Message edited by OldSalt -- 11/7/2008 9:42:05 AM >

(in reply to spoonchucker)

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