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cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 7:55:03 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2693
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		didn't we do the same in iraq?  i don't get it...........................





CNN) -- Vice President Dick Cheney harshly criticized Russia's military incursion into Georgia on Saturday, calling the action "an affront to civilized standards."




Vice President Dick Cheney arrives at a conference of political and business leaders in Italy on Saturday. Speaking to a group of business and political leaders in Italy, Cheney faulted Russia for invading the former Soviet republic, killing civilians and displacing thousands of Georgians, and failing to abide by a ceasefire agreement from the European Union.
"This chain of aggressive moves and diplomatic reversals has only intensified the concern that many have about Russia's larger objectives," he said. "For brutality against a neighbor is simply the latest in a succession of troublesome and unhelpful actions by the Russian government."
The statements come a day after the U.S. Navy command ship USS Whitney arrived in the Georgian port of Poti in what the United States called a humanitarian mission.

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 9:02:14 PM   
DanesDad

 

Posts: 2035
Joined: 3/21/2005
Status: offline 		I'm glad this guy wont be in office much longer.  I dont really think we have a leg to stand on, critizing another nation for invading someone.   Kinda the pot calling the kettle black, aint it?

(in reply to rapala11)
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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 9:09:32 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2693
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		there are other issues we could confront russia on if we chose to, but i don't think this was one of them.  had thought that bush and putin were "soul" buddies.

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 9:35:30 PM   
RIZ

 

Posts: 784
Joined: 4/17/2002
Status: offline 		i don't believe georgia was breaking any UN resolutions, trying to develope weapons of maSS DESTRUCTION, PERFORMING MASS GENOCIDE or sponoring errisism.

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 9:51:44 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2693
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Status: offline 		riz, un resolutions, yes, us resolutions, no.  they did not threaten us.  they were not our enemy.  we supplied them with weapons in the past.  we are not the united nations.

genocide, yea, saddam did this.  it is also happening in somalia, the sudan, uganda, haiti, cambodia, china during the cultural revolution, and so on.  we did not get involved in any of these. 

sponsored terrorism, as does iran, syria, north korea and so on.  did you know that not one of the hijackers who flew the planes on 9/11 were iraqis.  that most of the surrounding arab nations hated saddam.

as for wmds, bush is saying that it was faulty information.  i had the chance to hear scott ritter this year.  he was the former marine and u.n. chief weapons inspector from 92-99.  he states that there were no more.  they were destroyed. 

in the meantime, the real war on terror continues in afghanistan.  can you imagine what would have happened had we poured all of our resources into that area in the beginning.  i really think we would have killed or captured bin laden and zawahiri.  radical and extreme muslims would have been knocked back hard. 

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 10:01:32 PM   
spoonchucker


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Status: offline 		Rap,

It may be hypocritical, and ( What the h@ll could we do about it anyway? ), but many of our allies expect the "obligatory" denunciation. The game MUST be played.

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 10:05:20 PM   
jackq

 

Posts: 193
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From: Altoona/Newville, PA.
Status: offline 		Not to mention ....O I L !!!!!!!

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 10:13:51 PM   
RIZ

 

Posts: 784
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Status: offline 		so rap

are we as bad or worse than russia?  is that your stance?

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Post #: 8
RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 10:20:35 PM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2693
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Status: offline 		The game MUST be played

that's all it is.  you know, i would say i am pretty tolerant.  whoever is elected really won't make my life better and i have heard the rhetoric for years.  i know that if taxes go up or down, gas goes up or down, or anything else, i will find a way to survive.   the only thing that really bothers me is war.  if it is justified, i can accept.  but to send our servicemen and women to a war with there or moral or justifiable questions is reprehensible.  colin powell said after the start of the iraq war that war should only be used when all avenues of negotiations have been exhausted.  i think he may have been saying, we screwed up, lets do it different next time.  i wonder why those 4100 americans have died in iraq as well as over 100,000 innocent civilians.  man, there has just got to be another way.

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/6/2008 10:27:15 PM   
rapala11

 

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Status: offline 		oh no riz,  maybe as bad, maybe not as bad.  we do a lot of good in this world.  the average citizens of this country are the most charitable, giving people on this rock.  up until recently, other nations looked to us for guidance and leadership.

not sure how old you are, but since nam, we have been involved in too many countries.  not sure why.  i do know that russia and china don't invade much (lol).

however, we can't point a finger at russia (from what we all read, georgia started this thing) while we have invaded another country.  in fact, russia was dead set against us going into iraq.

riz, there has to be another way for all, including the superpowers, to solve problems.  the word genocide pops up.  terrible thing for sure.  but when i see americans dying of foreign soil, i can't help but think this is wrong.

the one point you did not make was we freed iraq.  maybe so, but it seems as though china benefitted from it more than anyone.

i don't know what the answers are and i respect your patriotism and your sticking up for our country.  but when we are wrong, we must learn from it and make things right.  

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 12:33:09 AM   
RIZ

 

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Status: offline 		that is true, when we are wrong we should learn from that.  however, we are involved in iraq and helped put a somewhat democracy/republic in place, we can not abandon them now.  for if we should, it would be cambodia/nam all over again, but woese.  that region of the world is stategic because of the oil and the fertility of that nation. when iraq eventually becomes strong enough to hold theor own, we will have a powerful friend in an area of few friends.  hey we rebuilt france, germany japan and half of europe after WWII and forgave the debt,  did we have to do that, no but we did and it helped us greatly for over 60 yrs.  we need influence in the middle east.

many have fought and die in service to this country, most on foreign soil, it is the only way to keep this country strong.  if we pull back now, no one in the world will respect us or trust us.  if you think we are disliked in the world, i think you are mistaken.  the people of those countries may sneer at us but the leaders do see the true value of a strong America.    we are the cops of the world, people put cops down until they need one or what would people say if the cops just said hey let the gang bangers just shot each other up, sit back, don't arrest and prosecute them, they are just killing them selves.  but there comes a point where they stop killing each other because a few became very powereful and now they are going after us and the cops are over matched and really will have a hard time of it.  that's what's going on here.  saddam was getting to strong and now iran and n. korea are flexing their muscles.  who's going to stop them from threatening other countries?  russia, china, germany, france the swiss.  no, no one else has the moral fortitude to it.  we did it to hitler, hitohito, the keiser, musselini.  we did not do it to the iatola komini(sp) in iran in the 1970's and see what happened there.

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Post #: 11
RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 12:39:30 AM   
tippy-toe


Posts: 4369
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: under a rock
Status: online 		I think the difference here is we are not looking to keep Iraq....

I do think we are too involved in the Middle East though. We have been fu(king around over there since WW II and what has it brought us???

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 8:25:03 AM   
jon_e_si

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline 		Some interesting reading - GRIM!!

I don't think we're like the Russians!


Chemical Massacre of the Kurds by the Iraqi Regime
A description of Saddam Husseins's poison gas attack called "Bloody Friday", in the city of Halabja in March, 1988.
www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html - 1k - Cached - Similar pages
Did Saddam Gas the Kurds?
In a recent New York Times  
There was a old book - You Can Trust the Russians (to be Russian) - or something like that - I think Putin and his cronies are like that and old "hardliners"!

How many "innocents" would have died if Sadaam were not removed??? Either way, I'm sure he would have sold us or anyone his oil. At one time, he had the 4th or 5th largest military force in the world! We have troops in over 125 countries. Don't forget Bosnia/Kosovo, Korea, etc. We can fight terrorism abroad or wait until they infiltrate us at home and cause another 9-11!

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 8:35:30 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2693
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		bob woodward has a new book out on iraq, entitled "the war within".  he talks of how we manipulated our way in there and how we now constantly spy on malaki.  he can't make a move without us knowing it.  friends don't do that.

a poll done a year ago stated that we had become the second most hated nation on earth.  this is because of our meddling in places like iraq.  we cannot leave, for sure.  we destroyed the infrastructure and the power grid of iraq and are obligated to fix it.  in the meantime, china will start reaping the benefits of their oil.  iraq will make profits and we will dump billions each month into the  rebuilding.  something crooked.  but as you said, we just can't walk away.

as for the cops of the world, who made us so?  why do our kids have to die solving international disputes.  let other countries do it for a change.  let other countries solve their own problems.  we can send them financial aid.

saddam was strong, but not nearly as strong as when bush I beat the snot out of him in the first gulf war.  he was staying within his borders.  a lot of his military strength had been destroyed, not only because of his tiff with us, but because of a long war with iran.  he was no longer a threat.

when you look at all the variables, we did not have to be there.  his regime was not a threat to us.  he was contained by his neighbors.  his only friend in the region was syria.  he was beat outside his borders and threatened within.  it was only a matter of time.

bottom line.....we had no moral justification for being there.....no terrorism, no wmds, no nukes, nothing. 

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 8:37:43 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2693
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		I think the difference here is we are not looking to keep Iraq....

tipp, that is true, but russia will eventually pull out completely.  they will maintain their role as peacekeepers in the disputed regions.  imperialism is fading from international vocabulary.

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 8:53:09 AM   
rapala11

 

Posts: 2693
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		morning jon....

there can be no doubt that saddam was a butcher, perpetrating attrocities against his people, especially the kurds to the north.  he will burn to the bone next to hitler and idi amin dada.  these horrific acts continue throughout africa and in nations that have a mixed muslim-christian tradition.  also in the far east.  why iraq for u.s. involvement.  especially after w's dad already smacked them?  something not right. 

as for the size of his military, you are right.  bush sr. destroyed most of it.  i thought saddam flew some of his remaining fighter jets into iran to save them and iran refused to give the back (lol).

the russians do have a checkered past.  after world war II, they gobbled up free nations and destroyed them from within.  with the fall of the ussr during the reagan years, things got better.  with pressure from the international community and with the rapid growth of the russian economy, it may continue on the road to peace. 

my point here is that we blasted the russian for invading a nation, yet did the same.  whatever lame reasons we both use, the acts were committed.


"We can fight terrorism abroad or wait until they infiltrate us at home and cause another 9-11! "..........had we gone where the terrorists were in the beginning, em masse, we may have destroyed them.  had we done as cheney said we were going to do,( small, strategic, surgical strikes by special forces wherever they were), we could have had them in pieces.  but they were not in iraq.  later, insurgents, filled with hate for us coming there, came in to blow themselves up (?).  but they were not there prior and will not be there after we leave.  you are right...we must continue the fight against those who would destroy us.

i had no idea we were in 125 countries.  wow.  maybe you know, because i really don't, but do some of these nations pay for us to be there?  always wondered about that.  actually, instead of iraq, i wish we were in the land of your father's birth.  they were our friends at one time and a peaceful people.  i think they had a right to be protected by the u.n. 

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 8:53:21 AM   
jon_e_si

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline 		Better "to spy" on Malaki than be accused of not knowing what is going on.

The "BOOK" says, "Thou shall not covet..." Unfortunately, too many (men/women) and nations - "covet"!!!

No justification???

    http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

We just needed better "spying"!
 
We can fight terrorism abroad or wait until they infiltrate us at home and cause another 9-11!

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RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 8:57:10 AM   
S-10

 

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  • academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/munichdebate.htm
  • ยท Cached page

    Rapalla-- you may want to read a bit of history because to me at least you sound a lot like Prime Minister Chamberlin.

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    • Post #: 18
    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 9:02:25 AM   
    rapala11

     

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    Status: offline     		know well chamberlain.  i am not an appeaser, nor would i agree to turn our backs on our friends, but i feel the justification for war must honestly be made, and in the case of iraq, it was not.  our own leaders have said that we had faulty information.

    chamberlain was a wimp and lindbergh stuck his head in the sand.

    we cannot follow either trains of thought.  however, we must be judicious in picking our battles.  there must be justification for going in after all negotiations have failed before one young american dies in a foreign land.

    i say this because i feel that our military is the greatest asset this country has.  anyone who puts on the uniform in defense of this country is a patriot.  big, big difference between politicians and servicemen and women.  the latter is willing to lay down their lives for this great land. 

    < Message edited by rapala11 -- 9/7/2008 9:08:09 AM >

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    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 9:04:04 AM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2693
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		Better "to spy" on Malaki than be accused of not knowing what is going on.


    jon, you are right.  had we done a better job spying on saddam, we may have never been there.

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    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 10:24:37 AM   
    jon_e_si

     

    Posts: 345
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    Status: offline     		Amen! Now I'm going to church.

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    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 10:34:51 AM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2693
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		oh, if my irish-catholic 81 year old mother only knew, but we are going to a baptist church today.....praise God.  you guys have a great day.

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    Post #: 22
    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/7/2008 8:02:38 PM   
    jonnyfishon

     

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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: jon_e_si

    Some interesting reading - GRIM!!

    I don't think we're like the Russians!


    Chemical Massacre of the Kurds by the Iraqi Regime
    A description of Saddam Husseins's poison gas attack called "Bloody Friday", in the city of Halabja in March, 1988.
    www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html - 1k - Cached - Similar pages
    Did Saddam Gas the Kurds?
    In a recent New York Times  
    There was a old book - You Can Trust the Russians (to be Russian) - or something like that - I think Putin and his cronies are like that and old "hardliners"!

    How many "innocents" would have died if Sadaam were not removed??? Either way, I'm sure he would have sold us or anyone his oil. At one time, he had the 4th or 5th largest military force in the world! We have troops in over 125 countries. Don't forget Bosnia/Kosovo, Korea, etc. We can fight terrorism abroad or wait until they infiltrate us at home and cause another 9-11!


    Im sure there would have been a lot less death if we would have left sadaam in power. Dropping 1000lb bombs from miles and miles away might kill some innocent people. The war was one of the stupidest things the us ever did next to voting for bush, twice. 

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    Post #: 23
    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/8/2008 9:00:55 AM   
    Porktown


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: jon_e_si

    We can fight terrorism abroad or wait until they infiltrate us at home and cause another 9-11!



    Were we not fighting them in Afghanistan, where they had PROOF of training grounds and actual terrorists?  Not killing nearly as many innocent families, and creating a new breed of "terrorist".  Those, who looked up to the US, until we took their Mother, Father, Brother, Sister, Child, ect. away from them.

    Saddom was a thug.  That is why Bush #1 went in and smacked him around a little bit.  After that, the only thing that he did wrong, was take a few shots at our patrol planes.  Not a good thing, but nothing that warranted war.  Dumbiya, knew this, so made up some BULL **** to make his buddies a ton of money from our tax dollars.  I hope you prayed for Dick Cheney at Church, as his soul is already starting to char. 

    Afhanistan had the same Jihadist crowd, but wasn't rallying the moderate Islamists to defect to radical Islam, as Iraq has done.  So, if you want to use the arguement, fight them abroad, Iraq has no legitimate excuse to be in your arguement.  We abandoned the real battle ground, to move it into urban warfare, which every military top brass will concede, is the most dangerous for our troops.  There is credible evidence that the Taliban and Al Quieda are all regrouping in Afghanistan, and basically letting our boys slug it out with Iraqi naturals, who we have forced into a war.

    But, since it was a Republican that lead us into it.  It's just fine.  We wouldn't want any unconstitutional laws saying that I can't shoot my gun off in a crowded mall...

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    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/8/2008 10:22:28 AM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2693
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    Status: offline     		s10, still questioning the chamberlin comment.  my gripe is the war in iraq, not afghanistan.  we can not run from those who attack us.  we can negotiate with those who don't like us to see if there are possible solutions.  i have stated all along that had we dumped our resources into afghanistan in the beginning that we may have had bin laden and zawahiri.

    this country has a right to defend itself.  it does not have a right to attack others unless there is absolute justification.  to state this does not make me or anyone else who questions a war an appeaser. 

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    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/8/2008 11:04:30 AM   
    RIZ

     

    Posts: 784
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    Status: offline     		ok rap we get it, you don't like the war, but what do we do now?  turn and run?  leave a basically defenseless nation to fend off iran?  so maybe we should not have done iraq, but that's not the point, what do we do now.  i say get in kick butt, WIN, then get out.  that takes support!!  you going to support the current mission or you going to dwell in the past and keep the wound open.  look at what happened to nam, it took 30yrs to close that wound.  why do it again?

    (in reply to rapala11)
    Post #: 26
    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/8/2008 11:21:32 AM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2693
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		riz, the point IS that we should have not gone into iraq.  but i agree with you, we cannot pull out until we get them back on their feet.  we have that moral obligation.  will not even argue that point.  you say win, though.  win against who?  the shias and sunnis will continue to fight each other and will both fight the kurds.  it has been going on for centuries.

    i would rather win against al qaeda.  they continue to move from pakistan to afghanistan.  these, riz, are our enemies and our mission is to destroy them.  

    i am not dwelling in the past, iraq is the present.  it has been said that those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.  nam all over again.  we should have learned before we got caught up in this.

    again, you are right, we cannot walk away.  we have to get them on their feet.  you know, i have a gut feeling that they are going to stick us in the near future.  already they have opened their oil fields to china. 

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    Post #: 27
    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/8/2008 12:30:02 PM   
    jon_e_si

     

    Posts: 345
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    Status: offline     		I still say we "flushed" them from Afganistan to IRAQ via Iran and Syria who are complicite and tacitely (if not overtly) support the terrorist.

    The US has many supporters in Iran & Syria, who can not openly support our efforts. If they are discovered by the Jihaddists - it will be a death sentence!

    (in reply to rapala11)
    Post #: 28
    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/8/2008 12:36:26 PM   
    rapala11

     

    Posts: 2693
    Joined: 3/5/2006
    Status: offline     		definately in iran, do we have friends.  it has been said that we should have attacked iran with money instead of iraq with military if we wanted a presence in that region.  don't know about the validity of that.  i do know that iranians favor a pro-western atmosphere and armediajah (sp) is not as popular as he would like.  didn't know about the syrians as of late being friendly to us, but jordan has been for a long time.

    _____________________________

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    Post #: 29
    RE: cheney blasts russia - 9/8/2008 12:42:05 PM   
    jon_e_si

     

    Posts: 345
    Joined: 5/4/2006
    Status: offline     		Not everyone left with the Shah!

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    Post #: 30
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