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Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 11:41:40 AM   
rhomer20

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline 		I'll start from the beginning on 7/20/09. I buy a new trail cam and put it in a spot ive hunted for a couple yrs. I also spice up a stump with approx. a pound of granulated salt and a 1/4 bag of acorn rage to get some quick pics. Pulled the camera about a week later and saw some nice bucks in the area. Acorn rage had been eaten and the salt had soaked into the soil due to a couple days of rain.

Lets move forward to 10/3/09 Opening Day. Im sitting on stand Sat evening about 30yds from where i had put the salt and acorn rage more than 2 months ago when i see someone walking towards me and yelling, "Hunter I am a game officer please come down from your stand." He explained to me that this was an active bait site that they had been watching for a while now and that i was breaking the law for hunting over bait. I asked how it could be active when the last time i put salt/acorn rage was more than 2 months ago and was a fairly small amount. He continued by saying that he stuck his finger in the soil and tasted it and said it was salty. So i tasted the soil and it tasted like dirt to me. He explained that the residue was still in the soil and i would have had to dig up the soil in that area (1ft by 2 ft) to make it in-active. After pleading my case for a while he still wrote me a $300 fine and made me remove my stand.

What do you think about my situation? I would like to plead not guilty and fight it in court.
Post #: 1
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 11:50:19 AM   
SilverKype


Posts: 4528
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: State
Status: offline 		I would fight it because sticking your finger in dirt and tasting salt doesn't validate baiting.  However, soil samples will likely determine which way it goes in court. 

This is one of the reasons I don't bait for cam photos.

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 12:58:28 PM   
Pork


Posts: 285
Joined: 5/4/2009
Status: offline 		If your date & amount used is accurate...and the dirt tastes salty....I'd tell him to EAT IT! And hope for the best.

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Post #: 3
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 1:55:51 PM   
kevinupp


Posts: 4542
Joined: 9/22/2001
Status: offline 		If it gets tested and comes back with residue being in the dirt you're going to be paying the fine.

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 3:22:28 PM   
KISHWAA


Posts: 852
Joined: 4/21/2008
From: DUQUESNE
Status: offline 		it says in the book of regs for this season

it is unlawful to hunt in or around any area where artificial or natural bait, food, hay, grain, fruit, nuts, salt, chemicals, or minerals, including their residues, are used, or have been used within the past 30 days, as an enticement to lure game or wildlife regardless of the type or quantity. hunters are responsible for ensuring that the hunting area has not been baited before they begin hunting. they should physically inspect the area and question land owners, guides, and caretakers. this section does not pertain to hunting nears areas where accepted farming or habitat management practices are taking place

but hes gonna argue that he was there and tasted salt the judge will look at him like hes dumb look at you and say did you bait the area within 30 days of hunting you say no ive stopped more than 2 months ago and it will be he say for your say and if the judge is his buddy get out the franks and get ready to pay but if the judge is cool he'll throw it out. there was a thread someone said their gonna be like hell this year for fines they need the money this year hes gonna be gunning for you big time my man

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 3:40:09 PM   
MuskyMastr


Posts: 2329
Joined: 6/30/2005
From: 20' up a white oak @ full draw
Status: offline 		They will quote average dissapation rates in soil that will put your salt/bait in the soil within the past thirty days and you will end up having to pay. I have heard of people having to dig the dirt out to make sites inactive.

So the problem becomes proving how long the salt stayed in the soil after it was all gone. As well as proving legally what the last date you put salt/rage on the area.

We don't have stands near our camera sites just because the deer move in our area by the time the season opens. I feel bad because this is a common problem in some areas.

Along these lines there are two bills currently in the pa house or senate, (I forget which) that would make it legal to hunt all species of game over corn.

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 4:25:56 PM   
SPIKER


Posts: 171
Joined: 1/19/2006
Status: offline 		This will be laughed outta court if I was the judge,game wardens eating dirt priceless!!!You should call the local paper and let them know you got the funniest police brief of the day..............

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Post #: 7
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 4:31:15 PM   
SPIKER


Posts: 171
Joined: 1/19/2006
Status: offline 		Maybe you can scrape up some fresh deer turds to have him taste test for salt as well,if there salty your busted!!!!

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Post #: 8
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 4:35:43 PM   
MuskyMastr


Posts: 2329
Joined: 6/30/2005
From: 20' up a white oak @ full draw
Status: offline 		§ 2308. Unlawful devices and methods.

8) Any artificial or natural bait, hay, grain, fruit,
nut, salt, chemical, mineral or other food as an enticement
for game or wildlife, regardless of kind and quantity, or
take advantage of any such area or food or bait prior to 30
days after the removal of such material and its residue.

Straight from the PA code. The word residue is the one that does it. So unless you send in soil tests that prove that soil has no more salt than the soil 15 feet away does. Pay the fine.

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 4:42:27 PM   
SPIKER


Posts: 171
Joined: 1/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr

§ 2308. Unlawful devices and methods.

8) Any artificial or natural bait, hay, grain, fruit,
nut, salt, chemical, mineral or other food as an enticement
for game or wildlife, regardless of kind and quantity, or
take advantage of any such area or food or bait prior to 30
days after the removal of such material and its residue.

Straight from the PA code. The word residue is the one that does it. So unless you send in soil tests that prove that soil has no more salt than the soil 15 feet away does. Pay the fine.


His tongue test is not proof and wont stand up in court,he would have to send in soil samples himself not Rhomer IMO.

I woulda gave the puke $300 just to take video/pics him eating dirt!!!!

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Post #: 10
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 4:47:19 PM   
SPIKER


Posts: 171
Joined: 1/19/2006
Status: offline 		The only thing is the trial will be in District court,your guilty there till proven inocent in PA

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Post #: 11
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 6:31:06 PM   
Dr. Trout

 

Posts: 1541
Joined: 3/3/2002
From: Jefferson County
Status: offline 		This sentence is IMPORTANT ---

""He explained to me that this was an active bait site that they had been watching for a while now and that i was breaking the law for hunting over bait.""

Maybe someone else was using the same area ????

My local WCO and deputies have dated photos, soil samples etc and are watching several spots too,  wonder if this was one of them ????

Have not talked to him to see if they busted some on Saturday.. I know they were out watching a couple sights with corn and one with the old tree stump soaked from the salt blocks just last week, tree stand  is 15 yards away at that one..

I never hunt any where near salt blocks because it (salt) soaks into the soil...  I use corn and apples to feed and photo deer... they are gone in a few days with little to no residue..

WCO said corn cobs with NO kernals.. that had been carried off ... would NOT be considered baiting (in his mind) so I did not have to get every single last one of them up before rifle season if I hunt near the feeder...

< Message edited by Dr. Trout -- 10/5/2009 6:33:38 PM >

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 6:32:21 PM   
Dr. Trout

 

Posts: 1541
Joined: 3/3/2002
From: Jefferson County
Status: offline 		sorry double post ????

< Message edited by Dr. Trout -- 10/5/2009 6:33:08 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 10:03:27 PM   
Wayniac

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 9/15/2009
Status: offline 		No question I would fight this IF your are being truthfull. What about signage that the game commission post saying baited area no hunting. They did that not too far from my cabin a couple years ago when someone set salt blocks around permanet stands. Thoise guys were set up from a neighbor BUT they lost there guns and had to fight it out at court. The charges were dropped but that whole area was closed for that rifle season for everyone. I can't see this holding up in court unless the game warden has PROOF. I think a little more than his word or taste test. Soil sample, pictures, etc. Good luck I wouldn't plead guilty if I wasn't no matter what. That probably stas with you for a while. If you wanted to hunt whitetail management that would stop you forever I think.

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Post #: 14
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 10:22:43 PM   
redneck steel

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 11/18/2003
Status: offline 		Hard to say. I would tell the officer to take a bite of soil right there on the spot. A guy a few years ago was about 800 (what the game warden claims) yards away from a baited site that he didnt know about. Got fined farily heavily. And he was even on his own property. But it all came down to the discretion of the officer in that situtation. In this situtation, I cant see a judge agreeing with an officer becasue he tasted dirt. If I was on jury duty (if there is a jury) on this one I'd be laughing like hell. Good luck, and I'd be asking the officer to provide for more than one piece of evidence. Just my 2 cents.

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Post #: 15
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 10:33:28 PM   
MuskyMastr


Posts: 2329
Joined: 6/30/2005
From: 20' up a white oak @ full draw
Status: offline 		Maybe ask the judge to eat the dirt to sample the evidence?

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 10:48:37 PM   
Wayniac

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 9/15/2009
Status: offline 		I wouldn't do recommend that musky! LOL!

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Post #: 17
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 11:38:54 PM   
heyiknowyou


Posts: 306
Joined: 9/17/2009
From: eeeeeeeeeeeerie
Status: offline 		fight it!!!

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Post #: 18
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/5/2009 11:50:07 PM   
Esox_Hunter


Posts: 805
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		You probably won't win this one, if they find even trace remants of your salt or acorn rage your done for.

The last time I put anything out for my cameras was in mid-June, at a site I had no intention of hunting, it is in my parents backyard basically.  There are still deer coming into the area and digging it up, 4 months later.  Without a doubt there is still residue left behind, which by the definition of the law is considered baiting.  The stuff I was using was called lucky buck, and I only put a few cup fulls out this year.  I would be willing to bet your site still has residue left behind, based on my experiences.

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Post #: 19
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 12:58:21 AM   
SPIKER


Posts: 171
Joined: 1/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

You probably won't win this one, if they find even trace remants of your salt or acorn rage your done for.




Could claim it was a natural occurrence??????

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Post #: 20
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 1:16:03 AM   
BIGSLICK


Posts: 1391
Joined: 5/15/2008
From: Girard "Steel Alley"
Status: offline 		So how are we (The average non-dirt eating joe) suppose to determine if there is "Residues" more than 2 month after the last time you put it out???

I would fight it.....prolly gonna cost ya 50 bucks if ya lose, but I don't think that is right....He tasted the dirt...Come on....Does he randomly go around sticking his finger in the ground and taste it to determine if there is residue present??  I don't think it will hold up unless he got soil samples and can prove that ON THE DAY you were hunting, there was still a large trace of residue....I mean, there is going to be a minimal trace even 6 months after applying it I am sure...But they have to draw the line somewhere....

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 2:05:17 AM   
Esox_Hunter


Posts: 805
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BIGSLICK

So how are we (The average non-dirt eating joe) suppose to determine if there is "Residues" more than 2 month after the last time you put it out???



Thats a good question.  Without my trail cam, I would have never thought any of this stuff would have been around 4 months later.  I am still getting pics of these deer digging in the ground, so I know some residue is still left.  I would be interested to hear how a WCO would interpret this, and what exactly their definition of "residue" is. 

I do agree the WCO's "tasted like salt" argument is pretty bogus.  For all we know he had a mouth full of potato chips before he ate the dirt, and had potato chip salt residue in his mouth.  I guess it would come down to your word against his, not a very solid argument IMO.  If you would appeal you would probably have a better chance, although by that time it would likely be cheaper just to pay the fine initially.

< Message edited by Esox_Hunter -- 10/6/2009 2:08:11 AM >

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 5:18:43 AM   
S-10

 

Posts: 2109
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		If you fight it he will take soil samples(if he hasn't already) and will find traces of salt residue. Both the stump and ground will contain some mineral traces more than two months after baiting. You have a loser IMO.

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Post #: 23
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 6:09:28 AM   
270wbmag


Posts: 128
Joined: 7/19/2009
Status: online 		If this happened in elk and go to district magistrate, you might win, he don't like pgc..get your own soil samples , if they test positive, hate to say it, you lose...prove negative, you win,..you could always say about his samples, better prove he took it from area that he states you were hunting..Get your own soil samples, and have witnesses to this on film. if you can ...good luck..had to be close to road????.....big mistake..

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Post #: 24
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 7:19:32 AM   
Ironhed


Posts: 5349
Joined: 11/7/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

quote:

ORIGINAL: BIGSLICK

So how are we (The average non-dirt eating joe) suppose to determine if there is "Residues" more than 2 month after the last time you put it out???



Thats a good question.  Without my trail cam, I would have never thought any of this stuff would have been around 4 months later.  I am still getting pics of these deer digging in the ground, so I know some residue is still left.  I would be interested to hear how a WCO would interpret this, and what exactly their definition of "residue" is. 

I do agree the WCO's "tasted like salt" argument is pretty bogus.  For all we know he had a mouth full of potato chips before he ate the dirt, and had potato chip salt residue in his mouth.  I guess it would come down to your word against his, not a very solid argument IMO.  If you would appeal you would probably have a better chance, although by that time it would likely be cheaper just to pay the fine initially.


Seems pretty easy to me...use whole foods, such as apples, pears, acorns, corn, etc..

Ironhed


< Message edited by Ironhed -- 10/6/2009 7:20:31 AM >

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 8:05:22 AM   
Free Spirit

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinupp

If it gets tested and comes back with residue being in the dirt you're going to be paying the fine.


It WILL be tested. Along with paying the fine you will also be paying for the testing---which will probably amount to more than the fine. Cut your losses and pay the fine.

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 11:05:58 AM   
Dr. Trout

 

Posts: 1541
Joined: 3/3/2002
From: Jefferson County
Status: offline 		Here's the problem I have with this topic.... 

besides some saying the PGC is the wrong party with no facts to back that up.. 


telling the guy to waste his money fighting it... in this case....
the PGC would not have been watching the spot if they did not have the proof.. it's that simple...
Hunting over bait is one of the top violation EVERY YEAR !!!

FYI.. many times it is the landowner that tells the PGC about the bait spot...  just because of one guy wwho hunts there .. he does not want the property to be posted for the rest of the folks he allows to hunt there..
if the PGC finds bait they "can" post the property against hunting for the season.. most of the time they do this only if it's the land owner doing the baiting... not if he turns in someone who is baiting...




no one except the PGC "watching the sight" knows what they have as evidence,
and I have to believe they were not wasting their time watching a spot they were not sure was baited...

the poster wrote he KNEW the salt had gone into the ground.. he knew he "had baited" the spot and still chose to hunt over it ???


How many of you guys bait a spot in the late summer (60 days before you plan to hunt there) and use something that allows residue to soak into the soil/stump then hunt over it in the fall ??????

Not what I think of when I think of a sportman..  sorry but that's my opinion ...

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Post #: 27
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 11:20:59 AM   
Dr. Trout

 

Posts: 1541
Joined: 3/3/2002
From: Jefferson County
Status: offline 		Archery hunters have to be especially careful about the "baiting"...  they are in the woods hunting while many gun hunters who will also be hunting that property in late November are still putting out bait...

I sold 7 salt blocks (50lbers) this past week-end and 13 bags of field corn (2 bushel bags)... and the guys were not any of our local farmers

BTW as for tasting the soil ..

the poster said the WCO said he tasted the soil.. he may not have actually done that.... he may have been trying to be funny...( sounds like something my WCO would say or do ) and he got a real kick out of the guy ACTUALLY reaching down and tasting the dirt ?????

don't know... was not there ...but was wondering  what if..

maybe it will be a field note in the future ???

< Message edited by Dr. Trout -- 10/6/2009 11:27:17 AM >

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RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 1:47:08 PM   
MuskyMastr


Posts: 2329
Joined: 6/30/2005
From: 20' up a white oak @ full draw
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BIGSLICK

So how are we (The average non-dirt eating joe) suppose to determine if there is "Residues" more than 2 month after the last time you put it out???



You have to dig it all out of the ground and remove the dirt from the area.  No other real way to determine other than Ironhed's suggestion of whole foods.  But I'm not interested in where they were eating minerals in july.  I am interested in where they are piling on the calories and in a few weeks where the does are piling on the calories.  The need for minerals has passed for the fellows I am after.

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Post #: 29
RE: Scenario on baiting - 10/6/2009 1:58:03 PM   
Dr. Trout

 

Posts: 1541
Joined: 3/3/2002
From: Jefferson County
Status: offline 		good point !!!

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