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Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 11:55:07 AM   
egg sac


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look at this link the wolfs need some serious help from some sick people.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/477616584?z00m=16569971

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 11:59:48 AM   
Cold


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I really have mixed feelings on that one.  Obviously the petition was written up by a die-hard animal rights activist.  Still...working that angle via a loophole in Federal law says something about the state...

I wonder what Gov. Palin has to do with or say about this?

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 1:47:26 PM   
Bughawk


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So much for fair chase.  This is not hunting, it is extermination.  The wolves hardly have a chance.  This is right up there with baiting animals.  It is one thing to hunt for food, but when it comes to sport hunting, these kinda of activities only serve the need for some to kill.  Hunting is not just about killing. 

< Message edited by Bughawk -- 9/11/2008 3:59:39 PM >


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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 3:52:28 PM   
kjjm4

 

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You're right in that it's extermination, not hunting.  In general, aerial shooting is done to control the population, not for sport.  It's certainly a lot less sporting than hunting them on the ground on foot, but it's not really any less humane than shooting them any other way. 

I'm generally not in favor of eradicating predators, but the populations do need to be controlled, and if aerial shooting is the only way to do it, so be it.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 4:05:23 PM   
Bughawk


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Eliminating preditors is usually not a good idea.  Their populations will rise and fall with the prey and generally they self regulate.  There are times when they get out of control, such as when a preditor is introduced into a new ecosystem or when humans want to increase the population of one the wolves main prey animals such as deer, elk or carabou.  In that case, having a smaller wolf population is to the advantage of the hunt hunters.

I am not sure about wolves, but I do know that coyotes can control their litter size based on the available food and hunting pressure.  The result is that it is almost impossible to eliminate coyotes once they have gotten a foot hold in an area.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 5:31:20 PM   
schlemoc

 

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Coyotes are a pain.  They easily adjust to their environment and adapt based on the available food sources.

In regards to the aerial hunting of wolves, I strongly agree with everything that has been said.  The entire topic leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 6:26:35 PM   
3way


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I can understand the general opposition to this aerial blasting. However once you hunt alaska and see the logistics of great distance/access, it tends to buffer your opinion. I've been there on 3 seperate trips and can't get over the vastness/weather and associated difficulties of travel and access in the bush.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 6:29:43 PM   
steelheadman28


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Thats a disgrace to this country. First of all wolves are not overpopulated in Alaska so theres no reason for it. Also I dont see much fun in it. Theres no reason for it.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 7:33:08 PM   
Storm Warning 2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bughawk

Eliminating preditors is usually not a good idea.  Their populations will rise and fall with the prey and generally they self regulate.  There are times when they get out of control, such as when a preditor is introduced into a new ecosystem or when humans want to increase the population of one the wolves main prey animals such as deer, elk or carabou.  In that case, having a smaller wolf population is to the advantage of the hunt hunters.

No doubt, but that regulation is usually starvation or disease.  How would you rather die?  Keep in mind wild wolf populations RARELY predate healthy animals.  They are there as a control.  Predators remove the weakest prey items.  Less energy expended = higher return for the wolf.  Little effect on herd with the exception of young prey animals removed from the herd.  It is simple natural law, survival of the fittest.  The strongest, most able animals get the privilege of passing on their genes.  It happens across the board, but there are few predators, except the wolf that can predate animals as large as Elk, Moose, and Caribou. 

I am not sure about wolves, but I do know that coyotes can control their litter size based on the available food and hunting pressure.  The result is that it is almost impossible to eliminate coyotes once they have gotten a foot hold in an area.


That is sign of an unhealthy population.  Deer are similar.  MATURE does will typically gestate 3 fawns and their bodies will selectively abort one or two fetuses depending upon availability of food.  Too many wolves, fewer pups, too many deer, fewer fawns.


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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 7:33:53 PM   
Storm Warning 2

 

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WTF?????

Half my reply is gone.

Never showed up?


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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 8:03:27 PM   
flyfishermanPA


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Speaking of wolves I was reading today that wild wolves are being introduced to New York, California, and I think wisconsin? Long story short it's working out, and that all the cattle the wolves kill the activists are paying the farmers for. The best part that appealed to me was that the wolves will kill the weaker deer, leaving more feed for the others, a win win I think.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 9:15:41 PM   
pafisher

 

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First I really like the thought of wolves,they represent wilderness to me.And killing anything wild like that is not sport.However,the people that did that were state wildlife officials and that article says nothing as to why they killed those wolves.Sorry not enough info there to sign a petition.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/11/2008 9:47:00 PM   
flyfishermanPA


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pafisher, I disagree. Though I agree that the information was some what unclear it says that they shot, what, 14 pups in the head close range. If that doesn't make you want to sign a petition protecting them I don't know what will.

And think what kind of sport is that? Shooting animals from the air, and no chance what so ever of survival..

here's the story..

Alaska is truly our nation's last frontier. It is also the last place in the U.S. where a few hunters still use aircraft to chase and kill wolves. They shoot these animals from the air or chase them to exhaustion before landing and shooting them point blank.
As recently as July, state wildlife agency personnel in Alaska staked out a known wolf denning site -- a practice that is illegal under Alaska law -- and, using helicopters, gunned down 14 adult wolves from the air. When they landed, they found the 14 helpless pups in the nearby dens -- just weeks old -- and methodically shot each one in the head. 28 wolves gunned down in all.
Congress passed a law thirty five years ago to put an end to aerial hunting. But Alaska is exploiting a loophole in federal law to resume the practice, not only for wolves, but bears as well. Hundreds of scientists have condemned what Alaska is doing, even as other states threaten to follow Alaska's lead. It's time to stop aerial hunting once and for all.

Rep. George Miller (CA) has introduced the Protect America's Wildlife (PAW) Act, legislation to close a federal loophole and curb Alaska's brutal aerial hunting program -- and prevent programs like it from spreading to places like the Greater Yellowstone region.


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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 5:16:39 AM   
Swans500

 

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LOVE the footage of the "Governor" enjoying this appalling activity....

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 6:56:38 AM   
JEB


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And the governor wants to be our new VP ? Maybe she'll allow the hunting of homeless people from helicopters too !!!!

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 8:59:26 AM   
JEB


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Eggy,

Check your PM.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 9:03:07 AM   
Bughawk


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Storm Warning 2 I think your post ended up in the quote of my post.  I looked at it and it was a bit different from what I posted.

I think we are talking pretty much the same thing.  Wolves or coyotes or whatever predators will keep their prey populations in check and as you say will cull out the weak and the injuried animals.  Given a healthy ecosystem, there should be plenty of prey and the wolf population should stablize.  I am not sure why culling of the wolves would be necessary.

Where there can be a problem would be in areas where humans are competing with wolves for the same prey or if wolves are attacking and killing livestock.  Honestly would find it hard to believe in a wilderness area that would happen. 

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 11:28:03 AM   
egg sac


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here some more on this topic.
http://www.defendersactionfund.org/newsroom/sarah_palin.html


Aerial hunting of wolves and bears

Governor Palin is an active promoter of Alaska's aerial hunting program whereby wolves and bears are shot from the air or chased by airplanes to the point of exhaustion before the pilot lands the plane and a gunner shoots the animals point blank.

Palin offered a $150 bounty for wolves to entice hunters to kill more wolves in certain parts of the state, with hunters having to present a wolf's foreleg to collect the bounty.

She actively opposed a ballot measure campaign seeking to end the aerial hunting of wolves by private hunters and approved a $400,000 state-funded campaign aimed at swaying people's votes on the issue.

She also introduced legislation to make it easier to kill wolves and bears and which would have also removed the aerial hunting initiative from the ballot and block the ability of citizens to vote on the issue.

The Board of Game, which she appoints, has approved the killing of black bear sows with cubs as part of the program and expanded the aerial control programs.
The media is currently looking into reports that state officials implementing one of the aerial wolf killing programs illegally killed five-week old wolf pups just outside their dens.

Sarah Palin says aerial hunting of wolves and bears is need to feed poor Alaskans.

If that's true then:
Why are the major special interest groups in Alaska pushing this program sport hunter groups and not advocates for the poor?
Why, in most of the areas where aerial hunting is done, are most of the moose and caribou taken by urban hunters and not true subsistence hunters?
Why does she oppose what is called “rural preference” which would give true rural subsistence hunters priority access over sport hunters to the areas where aerial hunting is conducted?

Under Alaska law, every citizen is a subsistence user, even if they don't hunt and even if they do, but live next to the local grocery store and don’t rely on what they kill to survive.

Global Warming

As recently as August 2008, Governor Palin questioned whether man-made fossil fuel emissions are responsible for global warming, defying worldwide scientific consensus (Newsmax 8/29/08). And her drill-drill-drill approach to energy issues will do nothing to ease the causes of global warming, promote the use of clean, renewable energy sources, or break our addiction to foreign oil.

Endangered Species

Palin has repeatedly opposed the listing of endangered animals under the Endangered Species List despite overwhelming scientific evidence that such listings are warranted.
Polar Bear

The U.S. Geological Survey predicts that loss of summer sea ice - crucial habitat for polar bears - could lead to the demise of two-thirds of the world's polar bears by mid-century, including all of Alaska's polar bears. The Bush administration has proposed listing the polar bears as threatened under the ESA to help protect polar bear habitat from threats such as oil and gas development.

Governor Palin has actively opposed the listing of the polar bear despite the fact that Alaska's top marine mammal biologists agreed with the federal scientists who believed the bear should be listed. She wrote the Secretary of Interior urging him not to list the bear on the ground it might hurt the state's oil- and gas-dependent economy. After the bear was listed, she recently filed suit seeking to overturn the listing of polar bears.
Beluga Whales

Alaska's Cook Inlet beluga whales are a unique group of white whales whose numbers have dramatically declined in the past two decades due to pressures ranging from pollution to increased ship traffic. Governor Palin opposes the listing of the Cook Inlet beluga whales, citing the listing as a threat to oil and gas development, despite their genetic uniqueness and the fact that their numbers have decreased from 1,300 in the 1980s to about 350 today.

Drilling

Palin is a strong supporter of drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, a vital wilderness area. It is home to hundreds of thousands of caribou who use the refuge as a calving ground, more than one million migratory birds, and countless other wildlife. It's the most important onshore denning habitat for female polar bears. Senator McCain himself has repeatedly voted to protect this pristine wilderness area. Palin is also a supporter of drilling in Bristol Bay and other offshore sites despite the risks to sensitive marine wildlife in the area, including the endangered polar bear and Beluga whale.

Clean Water and Pebble Mine

Governor Palin actively campaigned against a state ballot measure this summer aimed at protecting Alaska's Bristol Bay. The mining industry seeks to develop a gold and copper mine in the area that would pollute the Bay's headwaters and threaten the spawning grounds for the largest remaining wild salmon run. The initiative would have prevented large-scale mining operations from dumping waste materials into salmon watersheds.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 11:37:09 AM   
JEB


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Whats this Bitc*e's problem?  No politician is perfect,they all srcew something up.You just gotta vote on which one you feel will do the least amount of damage to our country.

< Message edited by JEB -- 9/12/2008 11:40:30 AM >

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 1:36:23 PM   
Over the Hill


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Notice the articles say "selected" areas. Many people use hunting there for substinance. Does it make a difference if they live in an urban area or the bush? Moose populations are down in many areas because of the wolf. Too  many wolf=less moose for people to eat.

Read up on it before your emotions take control. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17735990/ 

Sounds like a conservation effect to reduce the population.  If there are too many wolf in oone area and the population needs to go down, what diffrerence does it make if it is shot from a chopper, trapped, or stalked? Shooting pups or adults, wolf is a wolf. Alaska is not Disneyland. Don't let your emotions get the best of you.


Funny how the people from the city "love" to watch the wolf packs take down their prey in Yellwstone. Ripping the animal apart, eating/consuming it alive, sport kills, where wolves kill but don't consume their prey... that's ok. Oh the joy of watching it "made their trip" or didn't because there were no blood fests. But for a guy to go hunting and make a one shot quick kill is barbaric.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 3:01:58 PM   
mikelravy

 

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Moose are just about extinct in a lot of AK.  The wolves starve after that.  Shooting a few wolves now before they crash seems humane to me.  Bunny hugger propaganda seems out of place on a fishing forum anyway.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 3:18:00 PM   
griffon

 

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I agree with the last couple of posts.  There are ranchers and sportsmen/outfitters in the lower 48 states who's livelihoods have been ruined due to the reintroduction of wolves.  They can be very destructive to livestock and wild game animals.  Some estimate that wolves in Idaho have wiped out over 60% of the Elk Herd.  While studies suggest that coyotes and wolves will control their own populations, that rarely seems to happen and their numbers spiral out of control. 

FYI:  This practice has been happening in Texas for many years to control coyote numbers, and although there are alot of them killed their numbers flourish and they thrive.

< Message edited by griffon -- 9/12/2008 3:28:47 PM >

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 5:44:40 PM   
LDD

 

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It's all about $$$$$$$$...big game hunting in AK equals biiiig $$$$$$$$$..

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 5:48:17 PM   
LDD

 

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Sorry Over the Hill, nobody gives a flying %uck about subsistence hunters, it's all about the big game outfitters and the state liscensing process that out of staters have to go through and shell out big money for.  The subsistence hunters don't have lobbyists in Jueau...the big pay hunting lodges do.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 6:17:11 PM   
Over the Hill


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LDD, outfitters definately have a voice, but, they are outnumbered by the native Americans living there. The Alaskan Natives have powerful lobbyiest also.

< Message edited by Over the Hill -- 9/12/2008 6:28:02 PM >


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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 6:36:40 PM   
LDD

 

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Yeah, if you're talking about Natives then you're right. They have a big lobby as well.  I was talking about the average Joe Alaskan trying to fill his freezer. 

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 6:51:49 PM   
griffon

 

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I don't know about that...  My brother lived in Fairbanks for 7 years.  He and his friends all hunted and never had a problem filling there freezers, and always on public property.  They killed pretty much everything except Griz, Polar, and MuskOx...  Alaska is a sportsman's paradise, particularly if you live there.  I can't believe that the wolves are bringing that much revenue in to help the financial well being of the state, but I do believe someone is capitalizing on the killing of them (probably outfitters).  That said, it is very possible that the wolves have overpopulated in Alaska (they are all over the Yukon and tags are readily available in select areas).  If that is the case, killing is probably the most cost effective way to keep the populations in check (trap and transfer is expensive and not every place wants wolves... be careful what you wish for).  Not only is killing effective, but if it can raise revenue and benefit the environment at a total level then have at it. 

It is important to note that the website first listed is highly tied to PETA and many similar groups, with no affiliation to any group such as Safari Club.  Their information is very likely slanted to say the least and their credibility is highly suspect.   

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 6:53:38 PM   
Over the Hill


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LDD: Trying to find the economic impact from non-resident moose hunters... having a tough time. I'm only finding old stats. Native Alaskan vs. Alaskan residents hunters is very tough to look up. I would have to say it's pretty high. Natives hold onto traditions a lot longer. Like PA with it's native resident hunter's traditions of whitetail hunting. Traditions die hard.

Griffon, I agree with using the resource (wolf) for pop. control and making a few bucks out of it for the state. I wonder how much they take in for it. I will try to find that out. very true on the article's slant being tied to Animal rights groups. I try to read the source of the articles and who they are tied to. Good point.


Here's some stats on population from Alaskan F&G website.

Predation
Moose are preyed upon year-round by wolves and in spring, summer and fall by bears. Black bears hunt mostly young calf moose for about 6 weeks after calving, but grizzlies hunt both calf and adult moose. Where they are abundant relative to moose, bears and wolves can kill up to 85 percent of all calves born in a year and up to 15 to 20 percent of adults, keeping moose numbers low and resulting in greatly restricted harvests by hunters. In the absence of predator management, predators can hold depressed moose numbers at low densities, usually lower than 1 moose per 2 square miles and safe harvest levels at less than 5 percent a year. With temporary management of predators, moose densities of up to 2-3 moose per square mile can be achieved, and allowable harvests of up to 20 percent can be taken—even with near natural levels of bears and wolves after moose numbers increase.


Nutrition
In some parts of Alaska predation holds moose numbers far lower than the habitat can support. In rare instances when moose numbers get too high for available food, moose numbers can be reduced by harvesting high numbers of cows.
Good habitat for moose is naturally maintained by lightning-caused forest fires and rivers, which continually carve away at cut banks and deposit new gravel bars that support willows. About 60 percent of Alaska land is managed to allow wildland fires to burn where human life and developments are not threatened.
Game managers working with land managers also conduct prescribed fires to convert spruce forests to shrub producing stages. Logging and mechanical crushing of old age habitat can also stimulate growth of younger more productive browse plants desired by moose.

< Message edited by Over the Hill -- 9/12/2008 7:12:28 PM >


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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 8:18:14 PM   
pappy69


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According to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game wolves are doing just fine there.  Here's the link to the ADFG Over the Hill was referring to.

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RE: Sad statis of Wolfs in Alaska - 9/12/2008 8:45:34 PM   
Bughawk


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I wonder how the wolves and moose and the rest of the animals ever managed to exist without humans managing them.  The bottom line is that killing wolves allows for more animals for humans to hunt. 

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