Pymatuming FYI

Pymatuming FYI

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Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 11:51:34 AM

beerman0303

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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08226/903928-100.stm

I can see cracking down on littering, but bread making the carp/ducks unhealthy? Really.

Post #: 1

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 1:24:08 PM

dealinsteel

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Sure the state needs to make some money too!! They just paid for all of those updates, and with 330,000 visitors a year, they don't want to see the locals make $330,000 on stale bread! I think it really has to do with the careless demeanor of some of the people who throw the bag and all into the water. If you've ever been there you've seen the mess of litter around the area. But is this truly the solution? Just think if they put the rangers station there, the walleye fishing could be better (poachers), there could be less litter, and they could earn the salaries they previously made chasing illegal motors!

(in reply to beerman0303)

Post #: 2

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 1:33:25 PM

Trout About

Posts: 738
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does this also mean that we can't float bread as bait when fishing for carp?

(in reply to dealinsteel)

Post #: 3

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 2:53:00 PM

mgolf92

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The bread just makes the animals less wild because they begin to depend on humans for survival.

(in reply to Trout About)

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RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 3:25:45 PM

SteelPerch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mgolf92

The bread just makes the animals less wild because they begin to depend on humans for survival.

That can't be it because they still allow people to feed the animals, just not bread. They will continue to have the pellet stands there. I think the litter from empty bread bags coupled with poor nutrition content are bread is the problems.

(in reply to mgolf92)

Post #: 5

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 8:29:32 PM

*commander*

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one step forward and 2 steps back. didnt they spend over a million dollars revamping the place. imo it doesnt look a whole lot different than it did before. it is, however, easier to see the geese and segull crap now with the new pavement. finally change the h.p. to 20 and now you cant watch a bazillion carp woof down a loaf of bread in under 3 seconds??? what kid wants to watch them fight over pellets instead of a loaf of bread.

wco's handing out littering fines would probably make more money than when they finally decided to chase down average fishermen who were running more than 10hp.

< Message edited by *commander* -- 8/13/2008 8:44:51 PM >

(in reply to SteelPerch)

Post #: 6

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 8:32:52 PM

*commander*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mgolf92

The bread just makes the animals less wild because they begin to depend on humans for survival.

jmo but the animals depending on the bread feeds the local businesses.

besides that, when the season is over the animals/fish are rarely seen. hasnt been a problem for how many years, and now they want to change a good thing? if it wasnt for the carp/hatchery/waterfowl museum, linesville and the surrounding areas would be a ghost town.

< Message edited by *commander* -- 8/13/2008 8:45:34 PM >

(in reply to mgolf92)

Post #: 7

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 8:43:51 PM

Hammerdown

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I have not seen bread feeding slow the population growth yet

(in reply to *commander*)

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RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 9:50:20 PM

bluntman

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how much you wanna bet some family member of a PA Trout and Boat Gestapo bigshot owns a pellet making facility

(in reply to Hammerdown)

Post #: 9

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 10:11:45 PM

bubbaman

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It allcomes down to MONEY!! they are looking for any source of income. even a junior license. now no bread for the carp that they used to net from there and turn into fertilizer because there was so many. We fed bread to them when I was a kid , thats over 40 years, and now its no good to do that. I'm not buying that line !

(in reply to bluntman)

Post #: 10

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 10:58:21 PM

chauncy

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Ohhhhh, i get it. The bread is why the walleye fishing has declined.....

. Is that what they're saying?

(in reply to bubbaman)

Post #: 11

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/13/2008 11:41:14 PM

*commander*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluntman

how much you wanna bet some family member of a PA Trout and Boat Gestapo bigshot owns a pellet making facility

corruption??? couldnt be.

(in reply to bluntman)

Post #: 12

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 6:29:02 AM

peacymike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluntman

how much you wanna bet some family member of a PA Trout and Boat Gestapo bigshot owns a pellet making facility

commander buying stock in pellet making good luck to him and the gestapo

(in reply to bluntman)

Post #: 13

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 11:05:50 AM

Storm Warning 2

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It is leading to abnormally large algae blooms during the warmwater months. The bread is extremely nutrient rich and leftovers that float away is like dumping fertilizer into the lake. This "should" help lower the turbidity of the lake and hopefully positively improve water quality and hopefully walleye population.

(in reply to peacymike)

Post #: 14

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 1:01:55 PM

dealinsteel

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now we're starting to get to the problem!! okay so it's obvious that the issue is with bread and carp. Bread is very nutrient rich, and when it dissolves in the water it effects the water's composition. But even greater than that is the amount of nutrients in the carp's waste that it can't break down farther. So this being in the spillway of the dam that adds water into the lake, it's basically spreading this waste throughout the lake, effecting water quality of the entire lake?? And what happened to Big Spring Creek when the PAFBC released the fish waste from the hatchery into the stream? Those fish ate pellets I believe, and not bread. They wiped the whole stream out. Aquatic insects and all. So is this what we believe they're getting at? or is it just an attempt to make these carp believe bread is bad for their low-carb diets??

(in reply to Storm Warning 2)

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RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 1:16:07 PM

Storm Warning 2

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Dealin': The creek you speak of and the Pymatuning watershed are totally different animals. Just look at the pure volume of H2O. Waste from that hatchery in one shot would blow a lot of smaller ecosystems, more fish waste from the hatchery than probably the entire biomass of that stream and as we all know, trout are much more particular about water quality than most species. The article I read in the Meadville Tribune said that the fish comission now realizes the impact of the bread on the watershed and wished that it had never started, however, to rule it out entirely would ruin the tourist attraction that the spillway is. I don't know the science behind it, but I am sure some fisheries biologist determined that the pellets are lower impact than the bread.

(in reply to dealinsteel)

Post #: 16

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 3:25:02 PM

dealinsteel

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thanks storm for the explanation... and as we all speculated look at the new numbers for the spring walleye trap net survey, numbers down, sizes up.

(in reply to Storm Warning 2)

Post #: 17

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 5:17:39 PM

*commander*

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did the biologists weigh in the carp and find their body fat % too high. absolutely amazing. all these years the lake has been an excellent fishery. now the carp are fat and the water quality is suddenly a problem. hasnt seemed to bother the bass and musky fishery.

just a thought. is the water quality on the 3 rivers better than pymatuning. i'm no fisheries biologist but i gotta believe its not. granted not everything that gets caught on the rivers gets eaten like at pymy, but there are tons of walleye, gar, bass, musky, hybrids, etc... and even the supersensitive PADDLEFISH thrive in the rivers. is raw sewage, large amounts of litter, boat porta potty waste, pittsburgh whitefish, etc... better than bread waste???

< Message edited by *commander* -- 8/14/2008 5:20:55 PM >

(in reply to dealinsteel)

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RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 5:19:17 PM

*commander*

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peacymike

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluntman

how much you wanna bet some family member of a PA Trout and Boat Gestapo bigshot owns a pellet making facility

commander buying stock in pellet making good luck to him and the gestapo

i have stock in oil companies. dont need pellet stock. oil stocks will be good since gas will be needed to deliver pellets to the spillway

(in reply to peacymike)

Post #: 19

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 9:18:54 PM

peacymike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: *commander*

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacymike

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluntman

how much you wanna bet some family member of a PA Trout and Boat Gestapo bigshot owns a pellet making facility

commander buying stock in pellet making good luck to him and the gestapo

i have stock in oil companies. dont need pellet stock. oil stocks will be good since gas will be needed to deliver pellets to the spillway.

money man that 's y he better then anybody he get shot down he be on welfare before long. what a coke sucker he is

(in reply to *commander*)

Post #: 20

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 9:25:04 PM

Storm Warning 2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dealinsteel

thanks storm for the explanation... and as we all speculated look at the new numbers for the spring walleye trap net survey, numbers down, sizes up.

The old man would be proud, maybe my bio degree is good for something. LOL.

I think that goes back to the whole Alewife issue. Adult Alewife prey on young of the year perch and walleye. Can you blame them??? The OVER abundance of Alewife are predating the crap out of the stocked 'eye babies...

IT CAN be rectified, if they would stock mid-size hybrids to eat the crap out of the Alewife and get them back into reasonable numbers. Once they are, quit stocking the hybrids, they are sterile and can't reproduce and will eventually not compete with 'eyes. The idea of Alewife as forage for the 'eyes has definitely backfired. I think maybe Blueback herring may be a better idea. Have you seen some of the fantastic bass fisheries created in the mid south with bluebacks as the introduced forage??? Unreal. Herring don't eat baby 'eyes and perch...

I did catch a 14 3/4"er in early June though. Hope that is a good sign or I got the only undersized 'eye left...

(in reply to dealinsteel)

Post #: 21

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/14/2008 9:26:14 PM

Storm Warning 2

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Another thought on the Alewife...

Trap the crap out of them with purse nets and ship them to Lake Huron. I am sure the salmon crowd up there would pay us for them. They have a crashed salmon fishery due to crash of Alewife, but they have an OVER abundance of 'eyes now...

(in reply to Storm Warning 2)

Post #: 22

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/16/2008 7:16:20 PM

WALLEYE18

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beerman,why do you disagree with this.just your thoughts.

(in reply to Storm Warning 2)

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RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/17/2008 4:20:49 PM

puddlejumper1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Storm Warning 2

Dealin': The creek you speak of and the Pymatuning watershed are totally different animals. Just look at the pure volume of H2O. Waste from that hatchery in one shot would blow a lot of smaller ecosystems, more fish waste from the hatchery than probably the entire biomass of that stream and as we all know, trout are much more particular about water quality than most species. The article I read in the Meadville Tribune said that the fish comission now realizes the impact of the bread on the watershed and wished that it had never started, however, to rule it out entirely would ruin the tourist attraction that the spillway is. I don't know the science behind it, but I am sure some fisheries biologist determined that the pellets are lower impact than the bread.

You're the closest by far Storm. The bread is terrible for the hugh amount of Phos and even Nitrogen that goes into the lake. I had numerous grad classes up at Linesville's Pitt ecology station and let me tell you, people won't believe the amount of nutrients that get put into the lake. The greatest contributor is the bread (heavy rains will contribute high amounts from surrounding farmlands but only produces short term spikes- the bread throwing is long term and constant{not as much in winter but extremely high spring, summer, and fall}).

The science behind the pellets is........ there is no science. It's basically because not as much garbage will be thrown around (which isn't intirely a bad thing). The pellets actually have a higher amount of those algal bloom causing nutrients! Ouch.

What you have here is environmental quality vs. local economy. Environmentally, the best thing to do is to stop feeding the ducks,geese, and carp altogether. Economically, continue letting people throw bread, donuts, rolls and whatever else they eat to draw the tourists. What the answer? It depends on you're view of environmental quality and the economy. I received my masters in environmental biology but I'm not so blinded to see that the local economy wouldn't suffer. It would be tough for those people in Linesville to all of a sudden have a no feeding ban put up tomorrow. Either way, you'll have some people not very happy with any solution that's made.

The walleye problem goes much deeper than just nutrient loading from bread(remember some of the big walleye die off a few years ago), but that a different subject all together. Fish feeding was going on long before the walleye problem started but algal blooms followed by low oxygen levels in the water doesn't help.

And remember, walleye fishing is also tied to the economy.

(in reply to Storm Warning 2)

Post #: 24

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/17/2008 5:44:15 PM

*commander*

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walleye fishing and carp crap have had nothing to do with each other for 40+ years or however long people have been feeding carp bread in Linesville. those carp see bread approx. 6 months a year, not the other 6 months. the lake has been producing forever and other species are thriving in that lake. somebody(most likely a fisheries biologist that wont admit it)screwed up with the walleye dealio, whether it be alewife or whatever caused it. i'm sure McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, whatever other crap we eat etc..., is worse than some bread for some carp/geese 6 months a year. has the state contacted or subcontracted anybody else to look into the walleye problem. after approx. 10 years or so of swinging and missing, it may be time to find some new biologists.

< Message edited by *commander* -- 8/17/2008 5:53:37 PM >

(in reply to puddlejumper1)

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RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/17/2008 7:53:41 PM

beerman0303

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WALLEYE18

beerman,why do you disagree with this.just your thoughts.

I don't necessarily disagree with it. I just thought it was interesting that after years and years of feeding the fish that suddenly the water quality is adversely affected by it. I know that nothing gets done in this country anymore without laws/bills ect. being involved. I just found it intersesting that something as simple as the Linesville Spillway makes it into politics. I am all for the reduction of litter everywhere. I love being out in the wild and not seeing wrappers and human gabage everywhere. I fish often in the Pgh area and even with all the litter it can be great, but I'd rtaher not hook a trophy bass be casting near the old tire. It is amazing to me that the lower Allegheny is as productive as it is with all the garbage that is put in it. I just assumed that Pymatuming could handle a little bread waste.

(in reply to WALLEYE18)

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RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/18/2008 12:13:45 AM

puddlejumper1

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Sorry gentlemen if it seems like I jumped around a bit. Maybe I can clear things up.

First off, I thought the thread was about not feeding the carp, ducks, geese or whatever, bread. I don't agree that fish pellets are the answer (I don't believe the conspiracy theries either about somebody in the fish and boat comm. with ties to fish pellet ind.? I hope someone was kidding) either. As I understood it, it had a lot to do about the amount of litter from all the bread, roll, etc plastic bags and such ( although I'm wondering what they'll put the fish pellets in?) being thrown around. Anything that would help with the garbage would be a good thing wouldn't it? Once again though, I'm not sure that's the answer.

Second, I think people are misunderstanding the "pollution" part of this. It's not the type of pollutants like mercury, PCB or others that are polluting Pymatuning ( I'm not sure I'd eat too many fish from the three rivers area around Pittsburgh but I'll eat crappies and walleyes from Pymy any day). At least not from the bread anyway. It nutrient loading with Phosphorus and Nitrogen (and remember, the pellets have a higher concentration of these than the bread!- that's why I'm not a big fan of this change anyway). These aren't necessarily bad, living things need them (it's in fertilizers), but the amount that is put into the lake is the problem. and many years it isn't a problem except hot dry summers when you can create low O2 levels from the crash from algal blooms. You'll never get anything close to total dieoffs of fish in Pymy because of it's size and it has an outlet to flush them away so to speak (small farm ponds that may stop releasing water at an overflow when it's dry are the cases where you can get total fish kills in late summer).

Third, people say," Hey, this has been going on for years and nothings been a problem so why change things now. Well, that certainly could be true, but just for thought, farms in the Chesapeake Bay watershed have been fertilizing fields for many many years.......and look at the problems that the bay has today with nutrient loading (check out the Chesapeake Bay Foundation's web site if you haven't already read it in the news). Could it start to be more of a factor in Pymy? Maybe.... maybe not.

I never said that the walleye decline was the direct result of bread in the water. I know the two have been fine for years.

Now, getting off topic and into what this seems to be turning into........

Something's not right with the young walleye survival and I hope it gets fixed. Once again, I don't think it's a big conspiracy by the PFBC (cripes, it's starting to sound similar to the deer wars and the hate for the PGC). They're not happy about it, I'm not happy about it and many others aren't either, but I'm not going to start pointing fingers right away until I have more to go on than just opinions and guesses. As far as looking into the problem, Bowling Green Univ. was/has been doing an on going study for the past year or so dealing with the walleye problem. I haven't heard any final conclusions or results from them yet but I and alot of other people are certainly interested.

Walleyes can still be caught, but the days of the easier catches are a few years behind us. Will it be like the old days in the future? I don't know, but I'll certainly try to keep up to date on the on going saga and hope for the best. I think we all at least hope for that.

Sorry to ramble and I certainly didn't intend to ruffle any feathers. I just wanted to relay some info from field classes that I had since many dealt with Pymy and the surrounding watershed. Good fishing to all. I'll crawl back to my cave now

(in reply to beerman0303)

Post #: 27

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/20/2008 11:40:39 AM

luvinbluegills

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If the issue is litter then I go with the solution that should be applied to ciminal activity across the board: punish the offense. Increase the penalty for littering and get some watchers up there. I have no doubt that people could be found who'd do this for next to nothing in regards to pay. Someone litters, they get fined.

That's how I feel about many other braod-based "solutions" to problems in our society. Guns for example. Banning guns is a mistake in that it only serves to disarm honest people. Increase the penalty for crimes committed with a firearm instead of makign criminals out of honest people.

_____________________________

Faith is only as good as it's object
Adventures with Fish

(in reply to puddlejumper1)

Post #: 28

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/21/2008 12:23:19 AM

ready2fish

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I don't care why the rule was put in place.

What bothers me most is that I have a daughter that is 2.5 years old and we have taken her there twice. She absolutely loved the whole throwing bread thing and watching the waterfowl and fish gobble it up.

I just don't see pellets having the same effect

< Message edited by ready2fish -- 8/21/2008 12:24:00 AM >

(in reply to luvinbluegills)

Post #: 29

RE: Pymatuming FYI - 8/21/2008 1:12:53 AM

flyfishermanPA

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From: Butler Pennsylvania
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It's a tough call.. Sure the state has a case but I mean come on! Bread throwing(?) is something every has done when they were 5 years old. What can I say, it's fun!

just make the littering a offence..

(in reply to ready2fish)

Post #: 30

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