AnsweredPOSTED STREAMS 
WVDepscritch
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POSTED STREAMS
At the risk of starting a verbal war,has anyone heard anything about the bill that was in the courts concerning the posted streams or did it just die?
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sealegs2
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/10 08:58:21
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☼ Best Answerby WVDepscritch 2015/02/10 22:24:56
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WVDepscritch
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/10 22:54:53
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That is a shame!
The days of being able to go fishing and hunting as I did as a kid are long gone I guess. The state owned game and fish are not really available to the everyday person. It has become a privilege only to the wealthy. I have fished PA waters for 20 years and have seen very little litter or damage to property and I know the guide business is busy so in my mind most of the posting is due to greed.
Nuff said not going to change a thing.
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pikepredator2
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 02:49:34
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the problem WV is that "very little litter or damage to property" is not zero litter or property damage. I don't see tons of litter either but then you don't know how much has been cleaned up by the property owner or considerate fishermen. But the litter I do see sickens me to no end. Why is it the landowners responsibility to pick up pop bottles, food wrappers and discarded fishing crap? This would be enough to make me post so don't even get me started on property damage. I've said this before on this topic, your fishing license is not an all access pass to every water that holds fish. The thousands of dollars these landowners pay in taxes to the state far out trumps your $36 license fee, that's why this bill never stood a chance. It would have set property rights back 2 centuries.
post edited by pikepredator2 - 2015/02/11 02:58:52
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Porktown
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 08:50:20
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I agree agree with those that own stream side property, that it should be their right to restrict the general public from trespassing on their land. It is their property, whether it is 1/8 acre urban lot, 1/2 acre suburban lot or 200 acre rural lot. If I don't want someone walking through my property, I should have the right to tell them to leave.
That said the state does not collect property tax. They rake the working man and selected businesses over the coals for most of their funds, property taxes are local government/school district thing. So, by wording it that the landowners pay thousands in taxes to the state for the right, what about the working man that pays thousands in taxes to the state as well? Again, I don't agree that me paying thousands in state taxes gives me any right to trespass, but is a legit counter argument if you are basing off of state paid taxes. $0 of property taxes fund state managed fish/game.
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KJH807
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 10:24:03
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WVDepscritch
At the risk of starting a verbal war,has anyone heard anything about the bill that was in the courts concerning the posted streams or did it just die?
It was a proposal house bill that never got out of the Game & fisheries committee in 2014, and is now dead
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 11:02:50
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WVD I feel your pain, so many acres of fishing and hunting grounds now inaccessible. Even worse, the continued posting of once accessible lands. However, I cannot point a finger at 'trashing' as being the prime reason for the 'sign of things to come'. I believe the problem involves attitudes.
Attitudes of game law enforcement agencies thinking they can decimate deer herds in the name of 'trophy'. Attitudes of fish law enforcement agencies thinking they can dictate who can fish where and when. (i.e. trout and/or trophy specific streams, rivers and, lakes being off limits to other fishing for lack of a special stamp.) Attitudes of special interest groups getting laws changed in the interest of promoting their own agendas which, involves 'trophy'. Attitudes of the general hunting/fishing public who kill in the name of 'trophy'. Attitudes of the hunting/fishing public that think the wild game/fish belong to the 'state'. Attitudes of those wanting laws allowing trespass of privately owned property which denies the right of a landowner to his/her privacy. Attitudes of those that have forgotten hunting/fishing is a tradition and privilege. Attitudes of those that push their agendas hiding behind 'it's about the children' and every kid (regardless of age) is entitled to a 'trophy'.
It's about my attitude not wanting my dog getting caught (again) in a steel trap placed on my property by someone who thought they had a right because, they purchased a license.
Sorry................. I just have a bad attitude.
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
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DarDys
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 11:15:21
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Porktown
I agree agree with those that own stream side property, that it should be their right to restrict the general public from trespassing on their land. It is their property, whether it is 1/8 acre urban lot, 1/2 acre suburban lot or 200 acre rural lot. If I don't want someone walking through my property, I should have the right to tell them to leave. That said the state does not collect property tax. They rake the working man and selected businesses over the coals for most of their funds, property taxes are local government/school district thing. So, by wording it that the landowners pay thousands in taxes to the state for the right, what about the working man that pays thousands in taxes to the state as well? Again, I don't agree that me paying thousands in state taxes gives me any right to trespass, but is a legit counter argument if you are basing off of state paid taxes. $0 of property taxes fund state managed fish/game.
Following that logic, I should not pay any property or school taxes. We don't have kids, so we don't use the school system. We live on a flagged lot private road, so plowing and maintenance is on the property owners. That road exits onto a state road that we pay state and gasoline taxes to have serviced. We are on well water. We pay separately for sewer. The fire department is voluntary to which we subscribe and donate. The ambulance is private to which we subscribe and donate. The utilities are private that we pay for (and are taxed on separately). So basically, the only government service that our property and school taxes go to is police coverage. I would gladly pay whatever prorated portion that is. I like your logic. But unfortunately it doesn't fly either.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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WVDepscritch
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 11:31:51
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I don't care about taxes, I pay them too, I am mainly talking about the state owned fish and game not being available to all, the game animals cannot be removed from private property but fish should not be placed where the public cannot reach them, everyone who buys a license should be able to fish for the same fish, in other words stop stocking private waters.
As you already know I am not from your state and am not trashing it or anyone from your state but a lot of other states will not stock private water with public owned fish.
There! I have shot my wad and am not going to argue further, Thanks for listening
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pafisher
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 11:42:35
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WVDepscritch
I don't care about taxes, I pay them too, I am mainly talking about the state owned fish and game not being available to all, the game animals cannot be removed from private property but fish should not be placed where the public cannot reach them, everyone who buys a license should be able to fish for the same fish, in other words stop stocking private waters.
As you already know I am not from your state and am not trashing it or anyone from your state but a lot of other states will not stock private water with public owned fish.
There! I have shot my wad and am not going to argue further, Thanks for listening
If stocking Steelhead in streams where there are stretches of"private" water that is posted is discontinued there would not be a Steelhead fishery,the fish roam after being stocked.
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pikepredator2
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 12:53:00
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no Pork the state doesn't collect property taxes, but a land owner shelling out 5 grand a year in property taxes is going to have a whole helluva lot more say than you and your $36 fishing license when it comes to defeating a bill that's going to grant everybody and anybody access to his land.
post edited by pikepredator2 - 2015/02/11 12:58:11
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Porktown
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 13:00:53
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DarDys
I would gladly pay whatever prorated portion that is.
Which now makes your land public, following this same logic.
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DarDys
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 13:20:36
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No, actually it doesn't. It means that I would pay for police services. Is your home public because a portion of your taxes goes toward police services? I don't think so.
But if I were given the choice between not paying any property and school taxes and the deal was because I didnt I would not have access to the local police services (state police would still fall under state taxes ), I take that everyday for ever.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Porktown
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 13:22:40
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pikepredator2
no Pork the state doesn't collect property taxes, but a land owner shelling out 5 grand a year in property taxes is going to have a whole helluva lot more say than you and your $36 fishing license when it comes to defeating a bill that's going to grant everybody and anybody access to his land.
The landowner has the rights from purchasing/inheriting the land, not the amount of taxes paid on the land. I was merely pointing out that your argument did not make sense, that the state was collecting property tax from the land owner, which was basis for those rights. Local property tax has absolutely nothing to do with property rights. Should someone that owns and acre of stream side property, paying $500 in property tax, have less rights or say to their own land than someone paying $5k? I say no. If someone is paying $5k property taxes, they are most likely going to care more about protecting their investment, by lobbying or supporting state and federal politicians that support their interests.
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WVDepscritch
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 13:56:13
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Back to my point,it is not littering or damage or taxes that is causing the posting,it is greed,landowners can make a lot of money by allowing a certain few to fish for public owned fish
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Porktown
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 14:01:23
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DarDys
No, actually it doesn't.
Considering that my comment, pointing out that state taxes paid by a person has nothing to do with property rights, and your counter was that you should'd have to pay property taxes for things that you "don't use", follows the same logic. Anything that I typed, would be following the same logic as your response. Just curious, do you stay off of every other road in your municipality, besides the state road out front? Also, isn't it nice going to a local establisment, and the neighbor's kid, who's education you are paying for, isn't completely illiterate? I understand what you are saying. I think most of us with jobs and own property, pay much more that we get in return. Heck, even if you have kids, you would need about 20 of them to break even, for the local taxes paid through your life. But, it is part of living in this country, state and local municipality that we chose to invest in the property we call home.
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Porktown
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 14:10:13
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WVDepscritch
Back to my point,it is not littering or damage or taxes that is causing the posting,it is greed,landowners can make a lot of money by allowing a certain few to fish for public owned fish
How many are actually doing this though? Not many. It is the fact that the circus at Erie has been getting bigger and bigger. If 1 out 100 litters or breaks something, on a typical day, that means 2-3 minor incidents. Having to deal with that, or just people walking through my lawn, would be irritating beyond belief. If you have kids (that are old enough) or pets, should you have to watch them like hawks on your own property? I don't know about you, but if I see someone walking on my property that I don't know, it makes me uneasy. I think they should quit stocking steel head and focus on something that doesn't invite a circus of clowns onto private land. Don't bet me wrong only 1 out of 100 is a clown, but that is still a lot of clowns.
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DarDys
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 14:32:37
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Porktown
DarDys
No, actually it doesn't.
Considering that my comment, pointing out that state taxes paid by a person has nothing to do with property rights, and your counter was that you should'd have to pay property taxes for things that you "don't use", follows the same logic. Anything that I typed, would be following the same logic as your response. Just curious, do you stay off of every other road in your municipality, besides the state road out front? Also, isn't it nice going to a local establisment, and the neighbor's kid, who's education you are paying for, isn't completely illiterate? I understand what you are saying. I think most of us with jobs and own property, pay much more that we get in return. Heck, even if you have kids, you would need about 20 of them to break even, for the local taxes paid through your life. But, it is part of living in this country, state and local municipality that we chose to invest in the property we call home.
True. But just feels tough writing those tax checks when I don't get anything for it, especially the school tax where those using the system get a federal (and that is where most of the money comes from albeit funneled through other government entities) deduction that lowers their taxes.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Ninja of the Steel
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/11 23:33:25
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☄ Helpfulby crappiefisher 2015/02/12 09:08:27
When I was a kid growing up, my dad was fortunate enough to purchase a small hunting camp with some acreage in northern PA. The camp was in need of major repairs, many long weekend work trips were made and nail by nail over the course of years my Dad built his dream.
In that time, he made his decision to not post the property, no gated road, no signs. I will admit there were times we would show up at camp and a door would be kicked in, a window broken out, petty vandalism we summed up to bored kids on atv's. Growing into a young man I often wondered, why not post it? My Dad believed it encouraged a bad element, inviting trouble.
When buck season came around, often people, hunters, would approach the camp. We never wasted our time or energy chasing them off, instead we invited them in for a coffee or a beer. Most of the time we shared info on deer movement and local news.
One year, a close family friend, with a ritual of staying at our camp from bear season thru doe season, had winterized it for us and was heading home on his own. Driving out the steep camp road, his rear hatch opened and he lost a large portion of his hunting clothes and gear, not noticing until he was many miles down the Interstate. Knowing his penchant for Christian Brothers brandy, we laughed it off.
The following year, in camp for bear season, a local man, hunter, who had stopped by our camp in seasons past, delivered a box to us. In it was all of our buddies gear right down to his polypropylene socks.
"The images of himself and his line kept disappearing into the rising vapors of the river, which continually circles to the tops of the cliffs where, after becoming a wreath in the wind, they became rays of the sun."
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fisherofmen376
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 10:07:18
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Ninja that is a great story, and goes to show that there are still a lotta good honest people out there. But as has been stated, 1 out of 100 being clowns ruins it for the majority. Thats the way it goes in most things-from fishing and hunting, to going to
a local mall, to getting on an airplane. It's the few idiots, criminals or
psychos who ruin it for the rest.
But it would be an overreaction and an overreach of our government to open up access to posted property because state stocked fish swim thru. Even though I'd love more mileage of Erie streams to fish, it's just not right to go about it that way. So I'm glad the bill died.
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." Matthew 4:19
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DarDys
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 11:01:48
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That is a great story. Glad to see there are still good folks out there (we all know there are). But for every one of those I can tell you one of some person that was in or asked me to get out of my tree stand on either my property or other private property I was on (and they had no permission to be on) because they had some sense of entitlement.
It only takes a small percentage, as others have stated, at the wrong time, to jack a landowner.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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WVDepscritch
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 12:11:59
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No one wants access to the whole property, just the creek bed and the high water mark so the stream can be waded
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Porktown
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 13:14:04
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I'll save DarDy's some typing. Give this linked thread a read. There are some very legitimate concerns, many raised by DarDys, about allowing access to the streams as well. http://forums.fishusa.com.../551182-Upper-20-mile/ Many people that own stream side property allow angling, with the unwritten ethical code, that anglers only use the creek bed/high water mark or if there is an adjacent foot path. It comes back to that 1:100 that thinks it is a good idea to cut through someone's front lawn to save 2 minutes hiking, litter, or relieve themselves on their property. That sort of action is why so many properties have closed to the public. A bill can be written to stay near the stream, how many clowns would abide by it? The only thing keeping (most) of them off of posted land, are signs or a landowner telling them to leave or letting his dogs out after said clown passes a sign.
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DarDys
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 13:32:52
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The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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silverman31
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 13:58:30
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I have to say That I think a landowner should have the right to post his land if he wants to. It makes me sad because it limits access but hey they paid for the land and they pay the taxes.
Now!!! I think all stream side land should only be available for the landowner to fish. I don't want to pay for a private fishing club for this guy and all of his friends and buddies. The other thing that annoys me is we pay for the fish, but some well off guides pay the landowners off to create a private pay for play fishery. One thing I will never be is well off due to field that I work in, I can't afford to pay big club fishing fees etc. I do understand the landowner's point of view though, they don't want people walking in their front yards, tossing litter around, whipping it out to publically take a leak etc. Oh well that's my take on things and we as fishermen need to watch are behavior, myself included.
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DarDys
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 14:07:12
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Neither being a fishing guide nor leasing access to any, I don't have a dog in that fight. But keep in mind that those fishing that private water also paid for those fish in the exact same manner (by buying a license) and in the exact same amount, so the "they're catching the fish I paid for" doesn't hold any more validity than them stating that someone else is catching the fish they paid for.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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silverman31
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 16:02:47
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I thought about that angle to. They have a fishing license so they should still be okay fishing private land leased by guides. Or if the landowner allows me to fish the land it should ok. You got me on those technicalities. my solution is to continue to treat what is open with respect. Either that or make lots of money so i can fish private water or hire guides. I know i would sure hate to see more public access close. Erie tribs are beautiful fisherys. The steelhead are also magnificent.
post edited by silverman31 - 2015/02/12 16:05:46
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silverman31
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 16:16:07
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I dream of fishing all of steelhead alley some day, in my younger days me and a friend fished a lot of the erie tribs in pa and new york. It was great, lots of fish, new water etc. It's amazing though when you get older fishing alone is not as fun. Heck even some of the suckers i caught were trophies.
Can anyone tell me are the conrail tubes near rt 5 still posted.
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bingsbaits
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 19:22:52
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No need for new laws.
The streams just need to be proven in court they were/are navigable.
Those laws were in place when the property owners bought streamside property.
Just needs someone with deep pockets to take it to court.
Best play against the "Beaver" there is.
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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WVDepscritch
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Re: POSTED STREAMS
2015/02/12 22:21:18
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I am not even a local and I have noticed that the most choice stretches of posted water is usually leased
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