jiggerman41
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Knot help
I am only good at tying 1 knot which is the palomar knot and this will be my first year fly fishing.I was wondering if i leave the tag end of the line long and tie on a dropper will the knot be strong enough or should i learn a new knot.
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RIZ
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/16 11:28:54
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for tying on droppers that knot would work. the drawback is you have to double the line thru the eye and for thicker lines nad smaller flies, this may be a problem. the other drawback for the end fly is this knot leaves a long tag end and will eat-up your tippet fast when changing a lot of flies. you will need to join lines, leader to tippet, i like to use the blood knot but many people use a double surgeon knot, i feel the blood knot is a much stronger knot. as for the knot to the fly, i use a basic clinch knot. i can tie this knot with 1/4" tag and it's as strong as many others and easy to tie. i would also lear to tie loop knot, my favorite id the perfection loop. the main thing is to learn as many knot as you can and you can use what is best depending on the situation.
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casts_by_fly
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/16 15:03:59
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at the very minimum, you need to learn a surgeon's knot (water knot) because you'll have to tie on your tippet with one. When you tie in your next piece of tippet, leave the tag ends long. You'll end up with 3 ends in one knot (the fourth being the main line to the rod). One will be the longest end of the tippet you just tied on. That is where your point fly goes. Then there are two shorter tag ends, one from the heavier main leader pointing towards the point fly and the other of the new tippet pointing back to the rod. Trim the thin one pointing back to the rod as normal. Use the thicker one pointing to the point fly as your dropper line. With a little practice, you'll know just the right length to tie the tippet on so that you get 4-6" of dropper line and 1-2' of tippet.
Thanks,
Rick
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clearwater
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/16 21:53:07
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its best to keep think as simple and easy as u can when starting out surgeons knot is very easy and quick to tie, and works well for me.. all tho in eire i use braided leaders so its even easy to tie on tipit.just find what works 4 u and stick with it.. youtube is a great place to see how to tie knots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttiDcgvaDo4
10% Of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish..... IT AIN'T LUCK
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BASS MUNCH
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/17 02:21:48
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Jigger Orvis has a great little knot tying site. The knots they show are for many different situations. What makes this site great is the knots are shown step by step in animation. Here is the site http://www.orvis.com/orvis_assets/files/index.html I hope this helps you out!! Good tying to ya! ~Bass
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Bugslinger
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/20 07:13:53
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jiggerman, i have used the Orvis knot for droppers and every fly I tie on regardless of tippet size. It is one of the strongest and the smallest. I have artritis in my hands and find it the easiest to tie.
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chartist
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/20 08:09:29
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I also keep a bottle of super glue with me. I use the bottle with the brush on adapter...If I find knots continuuing to slip, I just brush on a bit.
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Bugslinger
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/22 14:47:35
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Superglue!!!!! lol . Let me tell you about me and superglue. It was 1991 in Ontario in the spring fishing for Brookies. There was snow on the ground the wind was blowing and my numb hands were trying to squeeze some superglue onto a streamer that was coming apart. I managed to glue both thumb and fore finger to the rod, palm to the cork grip and the fly firmly to the back of my hand. After several MooseHeads and liberal aplications of gas we decided to shave it off. I let Doc, do the shaving.
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SonofZ3
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/22 15:18:35
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The orvis knot has always worked very well for me. For streamers on larger diameter tippet the non-slip mono loop or Rapala knot is nice, but the orvis knot will still work. I used to tie lots of perfection loops, blood knots, etc. Now 99% of the time I'm only tying surgeon's knots and orvis knots. For large tippet to tippet (leader building) blood knots work good, but once I get down to 3x-4x or smaller I use surgeon's knots again. As has been said above, when starting out, you can do everything you need with the orvis knot and the surgeon's (once your backing and line is on your reel).
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jon_e_si
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/23 07:41:53
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Bugslinger
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/25 07:11:24
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The clinch knot tier is a great tool, but the clinch and improved clinch is not as strong and takes longer to tie than the Baker or Orvis knot does. I have broken off many fish and looking at the tippet there always is the tail tale corkscrew piece on line where the clinch knot was. We owe it to ourselfs to reduce loss fish do to weak knots,buy training ourselfs to tie better ones.
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Cold
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/25 08:53:00
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I have broken off many fish and looking at the tippet there always is the tail tale corkscrew piece on line where the clinch knot was. We owe it to ourselfs to reduce loss fish do to weak knots,buy training ourselfs to tie better ones. We owe it to ourselfs to tie knots properly. Never had any knot in my tippet fail at the knot (except wind knots). Tie em right, tie em tight, and it doesn't matter which of these knots you choose.
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Bugslinger
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/25 18:57:04
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Im not getting into an argument, but the fact is if your fishing with a ten pound tippet and have the fly tied on with an improved clinch knot you've reduced your tippet strength to aprox. 8 to 8.5 lbs and it will always break at the knot.
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Cold
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/25 20:18:18
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I'm not trying to get into an argument either, but the fact is, if you tie your knots properly, use even remotely appropriate tippet, and know how to properly use the rod, you should never ever break off unless you get tangled in obstructions.
I regularly use 5X for steel and have landed fish that weighed in excess of double the line's indicated test. Thank yous go out to those who taught me how to tie proper knots and fight fish effectively.
I find it mildly surprising that a guy who breaks off many times is giving lessons on how to avoid it.
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/25 20:32:44
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I use an improved clinch to attach my top fly and attach another chunk of tippet to either the bend or the eye of the top fly using another improved clinch for my dropper. For attaching tippet, I use a double uni, but all the knots here will work fine provided they are tied properly. Now that you have all the answers, you better knot mention this again.
post edited by Esox_Hunter - 2010/08/25 20:33:19
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Cold
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/26 09:09:58
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ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter
Now that you have all the answers, you better knot mention this again.
+1 Otherwise you'll find yourself in a real bind.
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Bugslinger
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 07:06:52
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Sorry jiggerman, but this is what happens on forums when the internet experts ignore hard facts to uphold their position on something even if their dead wrong. Cold, we agree do disagree, try something other than Trout like Mako on 25 lb tippet and tell me how your clinch knot holds up. Thanks for those who helped me on fly selection and leaders, and the general knowledge about the Tribs,I apreciated the honesty.
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jon_e_si
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 08:36:51
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Cold is correct - if you're getting that cork screw tail on your line after losing a fish - it's because your knot was improperly tied. This is what prompted me to buy the knot tyer mentioned above. Best proof to me was a King Salmon that decided to go down stream with me following. After slipping hitting the water (watching my hat float downstream) and regaining my footing and resuming the chase, I decided the best thing for me was to hold on with as much pressure as I could exert. Finally (to my relief) the line parted and I retrieved all of it. My knot was intact (no cork screw)but the hook had worn through the curve of the line.
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Cold
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 09:38:08
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Once again, I find it hard to take someone seriously when they readily admit that they regularly break their tippet...and then they try to tell other people how their way is the best way. Get some new material dUUd.
btw, are the mako up to route 5 yet? I have a new 5/0 jack steelhead pattern I cant wait to try. I figure it'll work for the mako, the pihrannas, and the gators.
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thedrake
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 11:29:21
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ORIGINAL: Bugslinger
Im not getting into an argument, but the fact is if your fishing with a ten pound tippet and have the fly tied on with an improved clinch knot you've reduced your tippet strength to aprox. 8 to 8.5 lbs and it will always break at the knot.
Knots are always weaker than the tippet. There's no knot to attach tippet or a fly that has the same strength as the tippet itself. That being said, tippet is most often going to break at the knot regardless of the knot you tie.
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thedrake
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 11:35:12
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ORIGINAL: Bugslinger
Sorry jiggerman, but this is what happens on forums when the internet experts ignore hard facts to uphold their position on something even if their dead wrong. Cold, we agree do disagree, try something other than Trout like Mako on 25 lb tippet and tell me how your clinch knot holds up. Thanks for those who helped me on fly selection and leaders, and the general knowledge about the Tribs,I apreciated the honesty.
Something tells me the teeth on a mako would cut the tippet, and the knot wouldn't be the issue. Bad example.
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PeteM
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 17:00:52
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Coming from a tree cutter whos life depended on good knots and the ability to tie them, learn a couple of appropriate knots and become very proficient at tying them correctly. fwiw, I use the clinch knot with 5 turns. Pull the working end (going towards the rod) to snug it up nicely, then lock it by pulling the tag end.). They don't have to be complicated or exotic, they just have to work. Hows that for internet pipe swinging? 
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Cold
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 17:50:39
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ORIGINAL: PeteM
Coming from a tree cutter whos life depended on good knots and the ability to tie them, learn a couple of appropriate knots and become very proficient at tying them correctly.
Excellent advice. In my current preferred setup for trout, I only need the imp. clinch for attaching flies, and a perfection loop for all other junctures. Flyline to furled leader, furled leader to 2-5' of tippet. Easy-peasy, and I've never had any knot in this setup fail me while fighting a fish in open water, from using 3X down to 5X for steelhead, and 4X down to 7X for trout. Only ever broken tippet when tangled in obstacles or scraped up on shale.
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PeteM
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 18:09:33
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You mean you don't use a modified klemheist for a dry and dropper?
How else are you going to hit both sides of a run on the same drift?
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Cold
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/30 19:37:59
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Real brahs only need one fly. 
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go-n-fishn
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RE: Knot help
2010/08/31 09:32:09
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Jiggerman , aren't you glad you ask!!
There will be days when fishing is better than ones optimistic forecast, others when it is far worse. Either is a gain over just staying home. **Roderick Haig-Brown
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Bugslinger
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RE: Knot help
2010/09/01 07:06:40
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Boy the stars are out in force. Ok experts here goes. 1. I tried to point out that a better knot is available, smaller,stronger and easier to tie. 2. On Mako or anyother toothy fish you use a bite leader. 3. Climbing knots and fishing knots are knots but the application changes because the material does.4. Correct, knots are always weaker than the main line/tippet but some are better choices. 5. jiggerman asked for help on a fishing forum regarding knot help and what he got was not what he asked for.
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PeteM
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RE: Knot help
2010/09/01 07:59:59
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ORIGINAL: Bugslinger
Boy the stars are out in force. Ok experts here goes. 1. I tried to point out that a better knot is available, smaller,stronger and easier to tie. 2. On Mako or anyother toothy fish you use a bite leader. 3. Climbing knots and fishing knots are knots but the application changes because the material does.4. Correct, knots are always weaker than the main line/tippet but some are better choices. 5. jiggerman asked for help on a fishing forum regarding knot help and what he got was not what he asked for.
Experts? My man, I guarantee you that my experience in selection and application of knot tying beats your fishing stories. So yes, I am an expert. And you are not. Now shut up.
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Cold
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RE: Knot help
2010/09/01 08:49:31
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ORIGINAL: PeteM
Experts?
My man, I guarantee you that my experience in selection and application of knot tying beats your fishing stories.
So yes, I am an expert. And you are not.
Now shut up.
post edited by Cold - 2010/09/01 08:50:13
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thedrake
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RE: Knot help
2010/09/01 11:48:09
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ORIGINAL: jiggerman41
I am only good at tying 1 knot which is the palomar knot and this will be my first year fly fishing.I was wondering if i leave the tag end of the line long and tie on a dropper will the knot be strong enough or should i learn a new knot.
You're best bet would be to avoid using the tag to add another fly. Although that setup works, it does tend to tangle often. A better method would be to tie on another piece of tippet to the bend of your first fly, cut it off to about 10" then tie your second fly on. Any of the knots mentioned here will work fine, so long as they're tied correctly.
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