Helpful ReplyNew question?

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Walleye jigs
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2015/03/30 13:19:37 (permalink)

New question?

When did the PGC and PFC become the bad guys? I've hunted,trapped and fished all my life, followed the rules and have never had any problems.
#1
S-10
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Re: New question? 2015/03/30 14:42:07 (permalink)
For many folks the PGC did when they got in bed with the anti hunters and started spending hunters money on non-game species while claiming to be too broke to fund game species and when they went along with the Audubon's deer reduction policy.
#2
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: New question? 2015/03/30 15:44:29 (permalink)
Jigs, my avatar may annoy many people but, the fact of the matter is, the PGC is solely responsible for the thousands (if not millions) of the same sign now hanging on trees, poles and, post across Penn's Woods. The antics and bull chyt the present day commission is pulling with the whitetail is just horrible.

I agree with S-10 in that, the PGC has "gotten in bed" with other organizations but, I'm thinking Elk, not birds trees and the other crap believed by most PA. hunters.

Remember, it's a sign of things to come.

Thanks for asking.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
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#3
Walleye jigs
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Re: New question? 2015/03/30 17:51:24 (permalink)
I know that when a piece of land around here sells, before the new owner even moves in every other tree along their border has one of those signs. Our club no longer raises pleasant each year because there is no enough land open to public hunting. But I fail to see the connection to the PGC.
#4
ridgehunter
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Re: New question? 2015/03/30 18:37:31 (permalink)
I don't believe that the PGC is solely responsible for property owners posting their property.  I've hunted for many years and in many Pa. counties that had a good amount of posted property as far back as 30-40 years ago.
 
Let's face, a good chunk of land is expensive today.  These folks buy it and post it.  They turn it into their own little hunting paradise and I don't blame them.
 
My uncle up in Venango county owned 380 wooded acres.  He never posted it and allowed anyone to hunt it.  My cousin owns it now since his dad (my uncle) passed away.  He posted it not long after.  Not because of the PGC and their deer management, he posted it because he wanted his own hunting paradise for him, his family and friends.   I'm sure the majority of the property owners post for the same reason.  Nothing wrong with that.
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S-10
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Re: New question? 2015/03/30 18:56:49 (permalink)
I lost five pieces of property as a direct result of the PGC's actions (I also had to listen to the landowners **** about them) and am currently hunting 2 pieces that are posted due to herd reduction but still have permission in part because I dammed them right along with the landowners and in part because  I had good relations with them. I also was told under no condition was I allowed to hunt on Sunday on one  piece if Sunday hunting became law.
 
The only reason I haven't posted my own property is because I have hunted on others all my life and wouldn't feel right doing it.
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anzomcik
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Re: New question? 2015/03/30 20:14:20 (permalink)
Have a different take on it. First about posting land. I feel that at least around my neck of the woods a lot was posted mainly because of the growing popularity of atv in the 90s and 2000s. It made traveling very easy and to cut across hundreds of acreas that would take along time to walk plus the trail blazing nature and "lets rip up" trail driving lead to a lot of people posting the land. The noise has been an issue and people don't want arcs driving around when they hunt either. I never heard of people in my area doing it to spite the pgc but not to say it doesn't happen...

I think the bad rap the pgc and pfc get to day follows the same lines as why the media paints thugs as victims and police as killers. They are authority figures. I am not saying every warden is a honest saint there is crummy people in every profession but with the use of social media and internet people can group up and spew venom.

Agree or disagree with the job they are doing I think every one can at least admit with out the pgc and pfc we would not have much of any hunting or fishing left by now.
#7
BIG WAGS
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Re: New question? 2015/03/30 21:06:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby wilbur_83 2015/04/01 14:19:18
I think posted signs have increased due to the decay of our society in regards to ones respect.
TOO many people think they are entitled to go on to someones property and they do not leave it the same way they entered it......
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treesparrow
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Re: New question? 2015/03/31 16:32:31 (permalink)
You hit the nail on the head Big Wags!
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Walleye jigs
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Re: New question? 2015/03/31 19:10:09 (permalink)
I have to agree with wags and and people do not respect each other any more. As for ATVs I,m not a fan. I seen how they like to tear everything in their path down and the garbage,beer cans, behind them. But I mainly put the blame on the State for not controlling their use with requiring insurance, drivers testing and plates. Most riders know if they're  not caught in the act their home free. But once again how does the blame fall on the PGC.?? Don't get me wrong I've been upset with local wardens for what I felt was their job and they'd pass the responsibility off on some else.
#10
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: New question? 2015/03/31 19:34:02 (permalink)
No doubt about yinz reasons for posted property and land having been posted for a long, long and, very long time.  However, the land posting in my little piece of Penn's Woods is taking a heavy toll on land never posted before.  Hunting clubs, made up of friends and families are approaching local farmers/land owners offering to lease land for the right of posting/hunting.  A land lease operation, not from this area, leased and then sub-leased over 450 acres in this area, just this past fall.  Yes, this practice is old news but, the fact of the matter is, it's eating up acres and acres of once accessible land.  Posting of land can have a domino effect in that, you posted your land so I posted my land or, like good neighbors, You do it and I'll do it and he'll do it too.
 
Anyway, being a neighbor of the many working and non-working farms I get the latest 'skinny' on 'wassup' in the neighborhood.  News travels fast at the local feed mill, or hardware store, on Saturday mornings.  Talk of land leasing propositions and/or future land postings is not uncommon among those that hunt & fish nor, is the reason for said actions.
 
 The most common of course, is the situation with the current deer management program which included one farm of 260 acres being posted because, the owner did not want 8 year old kids shooting on his property.  On another farm, 75 acres of corn/bean field got posted because the PGC dumped Pheasants on the property and the the farmer got tired of people asking to hunt the field.  Yet another farmer posted his land because the strangers wishing to hunt his property are becoming more and more and he feels uncomfortable with not knowing who's who.
 
Maybe the word "solely" was a bit strong in saying the present day PGC is the reason for so much land being posted against hunting but, I bet I can safely say they are a catalyst.  

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#11
wayne c
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Re: New question? 2015/03/31 21:40:13 (permalink)
Just so we're on the same page do you believe the deer management plan has had a significant role in land being posted or not Ridge.   Ive read several posts on 2 other boards when it was convenient for you, you were saying that it was, when at the time you were defending against claims sunday hunting would lead to more land posted.    Now all of a sudden, the tune is a little different?
 


#12
ridgehunter
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Re: New question? 2015/03/31 21:59:09 (permalink)
wayne, I know of no landowners (past or present) that have posted their land as a result of the PGC's deer management plan. 
 
You may have me mixed up with some other ridge.  I haven't posted on any other forums in at least several years.  When I did post about the PGC in a negative way it usually was about poaching and their lack of effort to stop it on our family's property .  I never really gave a hoot about the PGC's deer plan one way or the other.  As far as Sunday hunting goes, I'm all for it.  Always have and always will.     
#13
wayne c
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Re: New question? 2015/03/31 22:00:03 (permalink)
As for when did the pgc become the bad guy, Im not sure if that is a question of the attitudes of wcos, or the hunter disgust of the agency in general.   But here is my take on it.     The issues with law enforcement personell are often due to 2 things.    Lawbreakers spreading that sentiment that the guys are badge toting loudmouth barney fifes and secondly, some actual bad apples within the wco ranks, just as there are in any faction although a small minority.  
 
As for the agency itself, its the same with any politics, and that's pretty much all that wildlife management is.    Whomever is pulling the strings and having the most power within the agency determines whether they are our friends or not.   That can and does change over time.  Just as you have in other political arenas.   You have some whacko liberals, Hardcore conservatives and everything in between in Senate, House, etc.   As well as various interest groups all scratching and clawing for "the say" on issues like deer management.   And with politically appointed boards of commissioners, you never know when they are gonna appoint people who are a majority of our "friends" or not our friends at all.   That can change with one or two appointments very quickly changing majority votes from hunter friendly to not so much or vice versa.     The  board at pgc in recent past years have proven to be VERY nonhunterfriendly.   Currently, the group in place seems a bit better, but the jury is still out.     As for staff, there seems to be a split.    Some are friends of ours, others total proven malcontents.   Some of the trash has been taken out but more definitely needs to be addressed. The agency definitely needs to be gone over with a fine toothed comb to weed out the riff-raff.   Hopefully whomever gets the Exec. director chair permanently when a replacement is found for the current temp. guy, he makes that a #1 priority.   But I wont hold my breath.


#14
wayne c
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Re: New question? 2015/03/31 22:13:16 (permalink)
ridgehunter
You may have me mixed up with some other ridge. 


Yep.    That's exactly the case. lol.   Sorry 'bout that. 
 
As for the deer management getting more land posted, I can attest to it happening.    Leasing has increased and I know of several family farms that closed hunting to all "outsiders" and now only permit family due to "too many does being shot".     One even said hunters were too greedy and feel they need to fill all their tags if they see brown its down and because of that the deer numbers are now low.   
 
As for sunday hunting, too many dirty antideer agendas in play for me to support it currently.  Including a particular small group of well known to be environmentally extreme to the max antideer types that were among those pushing the very hardest for it.   I support hunting on sunday, Ive done it in other states and for already legal game here in Pa.    The groundwork needs to be laid before moving forward with that in the future imo.   That includes a stable, hunter friendly and non-deer-hating upper staff and deer management staff at PGC and a good responsible clear direction of deer management.   And many of us who follow these things and have for years will now exactly when that occurs as the players and their positions are known quite well to us.   Then I would support going forward slowly.  There would still be "cons" like disgruntled landowners (and I know a few who will never support sunday and WILL post land because of it) but currently you have that, along with the deer situation etc.  and its just too many cons with no attempt being made to address any of it.   But to even worry about sunday hunting before the other things like deer management is counterproductive and putting the cart before the horse.
post edited by wayne c - 2015/03/31 22:26:52


#15
lost sage rod sectio
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Re: New question? 2015/04/01 00:33:21 (permalink)
I hope there is never any Sunday hunting allowed in Pa. You know they are not going to incease stocking  limits or have better land management to support more hunting pressure. The deer herd has been destoyed and made so you have to own your own hunting preseve to have any deer to hunt . They have taken the hunting away from the common man who payed the freight for years.!!!!!!!!!
#16
DarDys
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Re: New question? 2015/04/01 07:55:20 (permalink)
I have no issues with the PBFC at all, with the exception that they have thrown out the rules for seating Commissioners. But that is minor.

With regard to the PGC, I have no issues with the people on the ground. I've had nothing but great I interactions with them, be they WCO, Deputy, or land management.

Upper management is another story. They took great deer hunting (if you haven't hunted for more than 20 years, you have never seen great PA deer hunting, sorry, you just have not) and for some reason, you pick whatever trips your trigger for a reason -- timber industry, insurance companies, enviro, anti deer, urban interaction, Lyme disease, CWD, etc. -- and changed that to the substandard product (yes, hunters are their customers) and expect hunters to like it because if all the reasons they plopped out there ( none of which came to reality in over a decade). It was a solution in search of a problem. And you better like it.

As for posting, yep, it happened before. But not to this degree. Pick a reason, but the folks I live around state they go it for one of three reasons -- 1) keep ATV traffic off their land, 2) deer hunting has gotten so bad that they need to manage the deer popujation on their own ground so they can actually experience okay hunting on their own property, and/or 3) deer hunting has gotten so bad that others have become so desperate to get a deer that they will do unsavory, if not illegal, things on the property owner's land to get one. Please notice that 2 of the 3 are associated with poor deer hunting.

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#17
Esox_Hunter
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Re: New question? 2015/04/01 13:31:13 (permalink)
I have personally lost access to a few properties directly as a result of the PGC in 2B.  The extended antlerless firearm season after Christmas drew a lot of slob hunters from other areas to 2B who hunted wherever and however they pleased, regardless of whether they had permission or not.  Landowners got tired of these idiots trashing their properties and stomping around with rifles every day for 5 weeks straight and shut down all hunting. 
 
I don't doubt that some of the PGC's decisions have increased the rate at which land is posted, but I don't believe that they are the root cause of the posting craze.  The trend started long before AR and HR came about, particularly in midwest states and Texas probably due in part to the increasing popularity of "trophy bucks" (think Buckmasters).  The other two big reasons I see, are landowner liability concerns and a blatant disrespect for other's property. 
 
Like it or not, it's something that we all have to deal with if we want to continue to hunt.  Regardless of anything the PGC does, I wouldn't expect things to improve.   
 
   
#18
wayne c
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Re: New question? 2015/04/01 18:36:02 (permalink)
I would say its quite likely some landowners would permit hunter access with increasing deer herds.   Some that currently might prohibit or highly restrict access currently.  Particularly some farmers and those that manage their timber.  Thanks to widescale herd reductions and other issues effecting deer numbers such as ehd, predation etc., deer management on many of those lands is currently more easily taken care of by many fewer people than had been needed previously to obtain "acceptable" deer numbers.
post edited by wayne c - 2015/04/01 18:37:24


#19
Walleye jigs
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Re: New question? 2015/04/01 19:45:27 (permalink)
I confronted the new owner of our woods not only about posting but how he posted signs on ever tree and telephone pole along the road.After a few remarks about respect on both sides he told me I could continue to his woods but if I got hurt he had me for trespassing and that would protect him from me suing. The thing that had me more upset that any thing was the he was not from anywhere around here and only got the land in case the state wanted to connect 70 with  22. In the end he made out cause Mark West needed it to run their gas lines. I gave up hunting in 03 due to health problems but they tell me Range has people patrolling it during hunting seasons and they did have the law confiscate one ATV after several warnings. The deer and turkeys love all that new grass.
#20
DarDys
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Re: New question? 2015/04/02 08:12:55 (permalink)
Liability is another driver of postings.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#21
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: New question? 2015/04/02 08:45:07 (permalink)
A landowner can't be sued by someone, getting injured, while fishing or hunting in PA. It's the law! Also, land does not have to be "posted" to enforce trespassing.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2015/04/02 08:47:27

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#22
Walleye jigs
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Re: New question? 2015/04/02 10:30:18 (permalink)
I don't know about the sue or not but that was his reasoning and it worked for me. I continued to hunt there till my health went south on me. Besides my biggest complaint was the putting up those ugly signs ever 2ft! That is worst then the trash the slops throw from their cars. However I still don't see blaming the PGC for the lost of the hunting area.
#23
r3g3
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Re: New question? 2015/04/02 10:30:23 (permalink)
People can sue for anything- even if they loose it cost the owner time and money.
The coffee is too hot- the croutons are too hard (real winning suits)
Lawyers will try and say the owner was somehow negligent beyond the scope  of the statute to facilitate their action. 
Just because a Hunter is suing doesn't mean they aren't greedy.
After all - in todays ME FIRST society its ALWAYS someone elses fault if you foul up.
Kinda cant blame owners for scaling back their exposure.
It STINKS - but ya cant really blame them.
I don't post my property in upstate NY but realize there IS a risk there.
post edited by r3g3 - 2015/04/02 10:35:30
#24
DarDys
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Re: New question? 2015/04/02 11:05:18 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
A landowner can't be sued by someone, getting injured, while fishing or hunting in PA. It's the law! Also, land does not have to be "posted" to enforce trespassing.


Sure they can be sued. If club sports teams can be sued because a kid was benched, someone getting hurt on your ground can and will sue.

Whether they win or not is another story, but also irrelevant. The cost of being sued kills most people.

The first thing we were told by our attorney, the developer, our insurance company, and our bank when we bought a 12 acre building lot was to get a $500,000 liability rider on our current home owners policy in case someone got injured whom happened to be trespassing. Their stance was paying for the insurance, whom would subsequently pay any claim, would be cheaper than fighting it in court.

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Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#25
r3g3
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Re: New question? 2015/04/02 14:07:02 (permalink)
And if they do pay off or even if ya win wait and see what the ins. costs after--if ya can still get it.
#26
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: New question? 2015/04/02 14:15:28 (permalink)
Can not sue a private landowner in PA. for injuries sustained while hunting/fishing private property. Such suits will be thrown out of court at no cost to the private landowner. Land in PA. does not have to be posted to protect the landowner from such action.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#27
r3g3
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Re: New question? 2015/04/02 17:36:39 (permalink)
Bet if ya read the statute  there is language excepting a landowners negligence-THAT is what they will try and claim and a court will likely let them try.
#28
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: New question? 2015/04/03 00:33:21 (permalink)
Year 2007 a revision to the law was signed by the PA. Gov. protecting private landowners from legal action by anyone injured using said land for recreational purposes.

Exceptions would be persons injured because of improvements. Such as in Dardy's case where he doesn't take precautions to keep persons from falling into say, a open excavation sight, while he builds a new home. Even if the injured person was illegally trespassing on his 'posted' land.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#29
DarDys
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Re: New question? 2015/04/03 07:43:13 (permalink)
Or if you have an "improvement" such as a built, not bought, tree stand/house.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#30
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