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Clint S
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Re: problem 2015/01/30 18:26:21 (permalink)
One of the articles I posted did state increased stress increases thiaminase in alewives.  All this talk about the steel and no one is  stressing over the miniscule and probable salmon die off. Only time will tell

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

Lucky13
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Re: problem 2015/01/30 19:01:11 (permalink)
Clint, I think, has it.  The alewife is the main prey fish in the lake for all the salmonids, even if some are more opportunistic than the kings, which are herring feeders unless there are none to be had.  The heavy stress experienced by the alewife population last winter, which led to a rare spring alewife die-off (even if not the kind of massive dieoff we saw in the 60's), would also have caused a greater production of thiaminase, which would lead to even poorer incorporation of B1 by the predators. Thiamin, B1, is necessary for many areas of the fish's metabolism, and lack of it can even become fatal.  The east end of the lake also froze sooner and stayed frozen longer last year, which could have meant greater stress on bait schools at the east end, and a larger impact, including some morbidity out in the deep water, on the salmon.  Things at the west end were fine, except for that period in June into July when no one could find fish, and I have not heard reports  of problems from west end tribs, they are still reporting healthy catches of browns and steel.  Of course, so was Douglaston last I looked. 

But there were strong runs of salmon in the Genesee right into early November, and good runs reported in the Oak and 18-mile.  If this winter stays cold enough to set up similar conditions, we could see the same thing happening next year.  And Dime, you're on it, too, as if the stresses are enough to decrease the alewife population significantly, predators that require alewives (Kings) either shrink in size or numbers, as happened in Michigan (size) and Huron (numbers, the whole fishery collapsed, and is slowly being "rebuilt"), the whole concept of carrying capacity, and the limiting factor for predators is the amount of prey.  More opportunistic feeders like steel and browns will switch to alternatives like Gobi when temperatures allow, and emerald shiners or sticklebacks or whatever they can find, but the kings really focus on alewife, so they will be the canary in the coal mine, and maybe we saw one canary tip over last year, and these scurvy (Yea, I know, that's C) steelhead are another bird gasping for air.
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/01/31 08:15:45 (permalink)
Lucky, it seems everything we've all mentioned in this thread is coming together to paint one larger picture. One of the articles I read referred to "one thing happens and causes another thing to happen, and another and so on..." The eastern end is getting locked up right now. Although it didn't last sandy pond did have ice on it earlier than most folks have ever seen this past year. I saw maybe 10 bees in my yard this past summer while the two before hosted thousands... Last winter put a major hurting on a lot. Another oddity to throw in to the equation: all the way in to mid June steelhead were in big numbers and even sometimes visible in the 12-15 foot of water mark due to the cold in shore temps that lingered. What were they eating???

The kings??? You all know I'm concerned about that. I've honestly always said I could do without them. But its the least I've ever seen this year and its a concern of mine. I think the bumper crop of 2012 plays a part in that. I do lean towards not enough bait in the lake... Or not enough diversity in bait fish more so
r3g3
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Re: problem 2015/01/31 10:17:21 (permalink)
Think many of the Kings that did live long enough to run  likely died just like the Steel in the river. No one likely noticed it because the Kings are supposed to die off.
Perhaps -like the Steel- after being in the river a while some of the disease issues wore off in some Kings.
IMHO that why the zones were OK with healthy looking breeding Kings  just like normal and lower areas  saw little spawn activity.
Likely the Hos had the same issues as many were around early, but personally never saw numbers of them on beds.
Clint S
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Re: problem 2015/01/31 20:59:13 (permalink)
Don't know if this has anything to do with anything but the perch bite on Sandy ponds absolutely bows this year.  5 # weigh in at tourney  today won for 20 fish where last year it was in the teens.

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

Lucky13
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Re: problem 2015/01/31 21:07:50 (permalink)
Same word all along the lake. Sodus, IBay, no one is getting much but tons of dinks, and the only once in a while.  Tons of small bait around I Bay, last week the ducks were diving big time at the outlet
r3g3
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Re: problem 2015/02/25 13:37:34 (permalink)
Been reading around a bit today fighting off the cold winter indoors---
Read where the Hatchery is treating King eggs to help avoid thiamine deficiency for later returns. They are also managing the Steel egg take to insure enough eggs for a proper stocking this year and injecting adult Steel prior to release..
It looked a bit like this 'issue' may be here for a while and isn't being taken as a one year glinch--- Just my take.
 Also on another forum a very  recent report says guys are still seeing dying fish in the river.
One fisherman  reports  many deads are seen while floating over larger pools.
 Considering that  a big issue seemed to be ice cover in last years record weather it will be interesting when this years results are known- this year is on track to break last years record ice cover.
    As always I maintain every faith in the State of NY in its efforts to maintain the fishery, we all enjoy so much, to the highest level of excellence possible.
I applaud their quick attention to the negative issues of this year and rapid positive reactions.
  Many knock various Govt agencies here and there but these guys are IMHO definitely up to the task---again.
post edited by r3g3 - 2015/02/25 13:45:23
fichy
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Re: problem 2015/02/25 17:33:23 (permalink)
Saw 2 whirling and dying. Both were relatively thin and almost chrome. If I could have got a hold of them I would have bonked and ate them.  The bottom of eddies and frogwater has steel carcasses. On the other hand , saw lots of very healthy and fat steel, and caught one that was very heavy for its length. Just a guess, but the fish that make it in the river for awhile seem to recuperate.  Fish I caught and  most I saw were pretty nice looking for this time of year.
r3g3
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Re: problem 2015/02/25 19:26:58 (permalink)
Real glad to hear ya got some Charlie-congrats.
Hey Charlie= during the Fall saw what appeared  to be a unusual number of very small Steel mixed with normal size Steel and Hos, haven't heard a thing about them since- do they return to the lake early or stay in the river ??
post edited by r3g3 - 2015/02/25 19:32:21
troutbum21
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Re: problem 2015/02/26 12:40:38 (permalink)
I wonder if the current problem has to do with wild vs hatchery fish and genetics.  A good article in the Spring 2015 Flyfishing & Tying Journal, Lost At Sea regarding declining returns of steelhead on the West coast.  That article deals with the problem of predation of hatchery raised fish vs wild stocks but I can't help but think we have mucked with the gene pool to the detriment of the fishery.  Just saying.......
pafisher
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Re: problem 2015/02/26 15:42:31 (permalink)
There is next to no natural repro of Steel in the SR,if they did n't stock there would be none to fish for.The west coast is a different story,lots of naturals out there.
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/03/11 16:20:45 (permalink)
Just got first hand info today of over 100 dead steelhead in the river sighted two days ago on a float from pineville to ballpark. Also got first hand info from a friend who attended state of the lake meeting last night. Vitamin b-defficiency was said to not be a new problem in which egg injections have been done in the past. A question was asked "why are more fish dying in salmon river and Not so Much in other tribs and Canadian tribs"... Answer from DEC: salmon river has too much fishing pressure...

I've feared the past few years...mostly since 2010ish/2011... Too many people... Steelhead being harassed from top to bottom. I do admire the lack of internet and Facebook hype the past year. I do hope it continues. Fishing should not be treated like a video game.
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2015/03/11 20:01:45 (permalink)
I got first hand info today that the zoo and below were filled with many cars, for a weds no less..
That about detours my thoughts of coming up anytime soon , esp on a weekend .
 
I think L-13 may have attended the meetings and I have read about them on a Lake forum from those that did and their views..
Too many ppl are really not the issue as my understanding as far as the health of the fishery..
The fishery (lake) is in a fragile state right now as I am reading..  Remember , it's a put and take fishery, it's all based on the lake balance more then the river pressure.. If pressure was the problem in tribs, measures could be taken to correct that.. That's not the case as I understand

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2015/03/11 21:13:10 (permalink)
If you wish to read about the sol meetings then I suggest looking at these points of view. I do agree with many here , even the finger pointing one. It's really best to start from page 1
http://www.lakeontariouni...led/page-4#entry339200

The strange thing is , years ago the trib anglers were blaming the lake fishers for the majority voice now the lake fishers are blaming the trib anglers for the voice.
post edited by hot tuna - 2015/03/11 21:28:11

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 07:11:33 (permalink)
Absolutely a lot more than fishing pressure problems tuna. Was only referring to "dead fish"... As no tribs are showing near as many dead fish as the salmon river.
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 07:57:18 (permalink)
And you're correct about fishing pressure currently: a lot of people. I suspect a lot more fish are dying as we speak. Fishing pressure is making the problem seem much worse on the "salmon river". ... Over 109 dead fish seen in 1 float??? That's freekin horrible. I know many say who cares its a put and take fishery. I do believe they should step in with some type of regulations if the dying fish persist. Now another record lake freeze after an already hurt alewive population... Here comes some really bad times folks
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 08:03:25 (permalink)
Big question here: if these steelhead are b1 defficjent in the lake; why are they showing up to the river and dying in the river??? I'm not implying that b-1 deficiency doesn't exist, just saying fish getting hooked and handled 50-100 times week while having vitamin deficiencies is not helping the problem
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 08:05:04 (permalink)
The hatchery has proven that fish held captive in a stress free environment have high survival rates...
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 08:12:51 (permalink)
A lot of the tribs have been too iced up for anything to get in, we shall see in the next week or so if there is much left to run. But they cited reports from the Genesee and other tribs of the same phenomenon I have not had a lot of time as I have been manually clearing snow before it could end up in my living room first, now my basement, but the data from tissue analysis of the fish, controlled with Lake Erie fish, showed dangerously low Vitamin B levels in both liver tissue and muscle tissue.  One pathologist had said that a fish with the B1 level seen was technically dead, and if not, would be soon.  And, if the alewife came through this winter like last, get ready for Round 2.  But they have or anticipate having the fish they need at the hatchery, and they can get the adults to recover with B injections.   And, yes, it is possible to play a fish to death, if you are overly concerned about the dead fish call DEC and ask them to close the river for a year or two. After that, call the lottery people and ask them for next week's winning number!
 
I do want to point out that the job done by DEC on this rivals anything you'll see on CSI, absolutely amazing forensics involving a lot of dedicated and insightful scientists working tirelessly to get such a detailed answer in a VERY short time period (at least as seen by those of us who have worked in science and know how painfully slow it can sometimes be.)   Also, I don't think there is anyone to point the finger at, we are dealing with a bunch of exotic species in a foreign environment, and how they behave under different stressors is basically anyones guess sometimes.  This was the "perfect storm" for steelhead mortality (and my have just been a close call for all the alewife eaters).
 
I can't believe that anyone who lived within 20 miles of Pulaski didn't go to the meeting considering the events of the past year and the studied opinions that have been flying right and left.
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 08:28:00 (permalink)
I live 6 miles from the DEC facility and even closer to tribs that host runs let alone the salmon river. As much as I wanted to attend, the same reasons that keep me from getting out on the river kept me from attending.

You're right lucky, there is no "one" factor to point the finger at which more or less is summed up through this whole thread as well as published studies on the matter. It just seems ironic that at the height of such a catastrophic event with steelhead noticibly dying in the river still; parking lots are filling up. Lfz is filled with people snagging the same fish over and over again... Let it burn baby... Just keep throwing gas on the fire. The good thing is, life goes on in these parts even if the fishery collapses ;)
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 08:40:10 (permalink)
Db, you pointed out that the driftboat spotted the mass die off from pineville down. I have to believe the fishing pressure was pretty light in that area .
The way I understand is the alewives were are the cause due to the poor condition they are in ( high levels -thiamine ).
It was also stated that they were in the perfered water colum of steelhead so the steelhead gorged on alwives in turn lowering their B-1 levels.
Reason being the SR is the most reported effect " could " be due to the SR seeing the most return of steelhead in the lake system and the highest concentration of alwives in that area.
This is just taken from information I have been reading.
Also as you know the SR had a huge shortfall of steelhead egg take last spring , I think the number was around 200,000 short. They were able to gather eggs from other hatcheries to come " close " to the shortfall .
IMO , I think it will be worse this season and possibly a disaster next year ( same winter senerio this year ).

L-13 is very right,
Possibly if the returns are in jeopardy , close the river system down from oct -15 till may -15 for 2 years
Honestly , IMO it's not a fishing pressure issue, there have been HOARDS of people steelheading for at least the last 10 , if not longer years. This and last year are no different.
All we can do is rely on the knowledge and expertise of the fisheries management then hope for the best.

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 08:57:00 (permalink)
Great points tuna... I am being misunderstood on the fishing pressure issue. I'm not saying its the problem... Just saying its not helping AT ALL. You have vitamin deficient fish that are being slaughtered... And for the dead fish, I've witnessed dying steelhead plenty of times... They descend downstream with the current while gasping for air. Altmar seems to be the crime scene from my observations
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2015/03/12 09:54:24 (permalink)
Gotcha brother. I understand what you mean. Pressure sure ain't helping weakened fish, that's a fact

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
r3g3
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Re: problem 2015/03/18 15:15:05 (permalink)
If fishing is a big part of the cause then STOP c and r for a couple of years.
(did I say that ???)
 
Catch a limit and keep it --may save  many fish improperly released and those done properly only to die because of other factors related to stress.
Yea--I know- not in the makeup of most of us, but may stop some of the dying of already stressed fish for a while till things on the lake straighten out.
Blast away-----
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2015/03/18 19:42:16 (permalink)
Trevor .
We just got imposed on new striped bass regulations for the Hudson River today.
A slot size.
Every thing between 28" & 40" ( edit) must be released. Only 1 fish below OR 1 fish above can be kept . Most fish I ( we ) catch are outta the keep range and in the release status .

As far as the SR , I have to think and from my experience over the years guiding. Most fishers below the zones are catch and creel within the 1 fish limit
post edited by hot tuna - 2015/03/18 20:12:37

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
Clint S
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Re: problem 2015/03/18 20:16:47 (permalink)
hot tuna

As far as the SR , I have to think and from my experience over the years guiding. Most fishers below the zones are catch and creel within the 1 fish limit

And after a quick trip to the car they catch their limit again.
 
 From what I have seen I would say many of the fly chuckers are  C&R, especially the ones above 50.   Most spin guys are out for meat especially the ones fishing with sponge.  I know when I fish my spin reel with egg sacs I am going to keep a fish. My wife likes how they taste and I do not have to buy it from the store.
 
If we eliminated the number of kept foul hooked fish (snaggers), the fishery would be fine even with the loses. Who would like to venture a guess on the % of kept fish that are fair hooked. In my brief history of fishing I would say well over half the steel I have seen strung up were hooked in the ****.
post edited by Clint S - 2015/03/18 20:18:10

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

r3g3
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Re: problem 2015/03/18 20:23:06 (permalink)
Slot limits on Salt here in Ct were in place long ago and  -as one who did a LOT of striper fishing in the Sound-did a lot IMHO on greatly improving the fishery-over time.
 Unfortunately they were different in each state and when fishing close to a line  - for ex putting in on a RI ramp but fishing CT waters it got confusing.
The limits surely helped the fishery come back but they weren't consistent from sate to state--although generally similar IMHO.
It is tough some days catching fish only to have to send them back all day when looking for one for the grill.
 
Agree on most SR guys.
post edited by r3g3 - 2015/03/18 20:25:05
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2015/03/18 20:57:15 (permalink)
I'd say 90% guided trips are catch and creel. Salmon or steel . I also believe that how far one traveles to fish also contributes to creel or release . A guy going an hr to fish is going to creel less, well to an extent.
Once you get out of the zone I honestly believe the majority of fishers are going to keep at least 1 fish. Personally I know some who do as Clint said.
I don't think harvesting more is the answer , remember , the lake limits are higher then tribs.

As for stripers and slots.
I do think you , Trev we not really a slot but a min size
Slots SUCK IMO . Not saying that protecting spawners are a bad thing or possibly necessary but a slot limit using live bait is not the answer . Anyone who fished slots for lakers on Ontario can attest .
The stripers along the coastal shorelines are much different then spawning fish in my ( our ) trib.
I have fished striped bass here since the 70's. we slaughtered them then and very few recreational fishers but MANY comercial fishers .
Comercial fishers raped the seas and winter migratory holding areas.
The early - mid 80's got so devistated , it wasn't even worth fishing then here.
Marine regs imposed a comercial restriction and it worked , 100 fold. The fish rebounded to peak levels about 10-15 years ago, and so did the recreational fishers ( here )

Now was the bait ( herring ) issue. Again regs were imposed, no trib netting and 10 herring limit.
So with the new spawning protection slot, imposed herring limit. My guess is in 5-7 years the stripers will explode and the herring ( bait ) will be off limit as in some states ( tribs already ) .
Tricky stuff this fishery game..

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2015/03/18 21:43:32 (permalink)
Just a final on the hijack from me.
I know nothing about salt water fishery . Charlie , Andy and yourself are light years versed then me.
Charlie is a wealth of knowledge .
All my experience is of a Hudson River spawning run that lasts about 30-50 days a year

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/03/19 00:01:36 (permalink)
Great to hear your views rj on the Hudson rj... Passionate and true from what you know. Top notch in my book.

For the salmon river. Yes a lot of guys below rt. 52 are taking 1 fish per outting. But catching,snagging, snapping pics, and same fish being hooked over and over again is a whole other side of it. I'm happy to see that center pin and bobber fishing is not as productive as it was... Just like every other fad... Once everyone else is doing it, the fish catch on.
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