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SteelieStudent
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 08:04:59 (permalink)
Guys I've been following this thread for a while. What I'm going to say is just speculation, not saying I know the answer, but I think Clint said something significant - noting that lack of salmon = lack of eggs for steelhead to eat. If the steelhead are being affected by a nutritional disease like lack of b12 vitamin it could be due to lack of a specific food item in the diet, like salmon eggs, salmon flesh, or maggots. Rainbow/steelhead evolved in concert with salmon and it would not be surprising if they depend on something derived from salmon to maintain good health while overwintering in the stream. So the problems the steelhead are experiencing might be a 'knock on' effect of the salmon run being down.
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hot tuna
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 08:50:35 (permalink)
Nice observations folks and thanks for the input steelie, that goes for everyone .
I said it way back about the salmon in the lake and just my observations were from charter and boaters reports on forums.
L-13, I have to think that the survey on the lake is a bit skewed. Yes there were great early catches of salmon early. Most all the reports and discussions I have been following on the lake have said the salmon were mostly ALL jacks and on the west end.
The thermocline hardly set up so the normal July- Aug trolling methods were difficult to pattern the mature fish. Most charters opted for trout and lake trout to put clients on fish. For those species there were great catches reported.
Along come mid Aug into sept and finally the mature salmon started being caught more on a regular basis. Reason being could be because they were staging , more boats targeting them so more reports ? I don't know but I sure do know it was a very " off " year on the Great Lake for salmon.
Also of note was not due to a lack of alewives

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 17:55:28 (permalink)
Most ice on the lake since 1977 could be playing a part somewhere in there too... I've heard opinions expressed towards the thick freeze on the lake can take a toll on baitfish... I'm sure it can take a toll on less than yearling salmonoids as well... I'd be shocked if lake Ontario collapsed completely in regards to salmonoids... Some lean years "could" be coming though....
#63
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 18:23:37 (permalink)
I don't know what data has been reported for alewives for 2014. I know we had a die off down here in June, first time I saw dead alewifes since 2002,  Region 8 fisheries indicated it was all along the lake.  Past data says alewifes are seriously impacted by harsh winters, and 2013-14 was the harshest in a long time.  If the Boat survey is skewed, it has always been skewed, DEC has been using it for years as an indicator of relative health of the populations.  A lot of this also seems to be eastern Lake, as I saw lots of Salmon in the Genny, although they were late, and were still around into mid November, and that is reported for the Oak and 18 Mile as well.  The lack of eggs everyone has spoken of could also be a function of steady moderate flows during spawning, so that the vast majority of eggs spawned actually got buried, or it could be what I speculated a while back, that a lot more salmon running late dug redds in the middle river where most of the posters here do not go, but a lot of savvy boat guides may have know of, as there were a lot more boats going out of Pineville, at least when I was there.  I have yet to hear anyone I know in DEC comment on a bad salmon run, and they have certainly got their fingers on that pulse, as they depend on the eggs for the next few years. But since we are all free to speculate, here's another "perfect storm"  scenario.  ~60% of the returning kings when measured in the last couple of years are natural reproduction.  My recollection is that June a few years ago was extremely hot.  Maybe a whole year's worth of fry didn't make it to smolt in a "hot" river.  As the last few years have been natives followed by hatchery fish, the gap in September could be the lost year class.  This is transparent on the rest of the tribs because they don't have significant natural reproduction, they just had late runs of hatchery fish, but it would manifest as a major loss on the SR. Another possibility is that there was heavy alewife mortality, so a lot of fish hit the bottom in the deep lake from starvation, but then why only in the eastern basin as these fish rove the whole lake, traveling beaucoup miles in one day.  As to the Thiamine deficiency, this is one thing that has been very well documented as a result of an alewife diet, and has been strongly implicated in reproductive failure, but if everything else is constant, why would it weaken rainbows this year and not other years (although there was that long period of nearly no steelhead) and why not other fish that also consume alewives.  The kings that were in there were pretty stocky fish.  I think thin fish have not been getting enough to eat, and if what bait they were getting to eat depleted vitamin B, and then you hit them with additional stressors like lice or over and over and over being caught, a lot belly up.  And the "not getting enough to eat" part could be a lot less bait due to last winter. But I'll have to wait until Brian Weidel and Company release the trawl data in the spring.  And if that is also skewed, well, again that has been the measurement system for that part of the data for years.
 
My main point is that until the data comes back it is all just speculation, and it is a complex enough system to come up with myriad scenarios.
 
As to letting DEC know about things like Kelts dying, of course you should always drop a quarter to report what looks out of the ordinary, but most of the literature points to heavy post spawn mortality in trout and Atlantic salmon due to the rigors of spawning, but it is not complete post spawn mortality like it is for Kings and Cohoes. So I don't know that dropbacks dying is not to be expected.  If that worries you, stop fishing in mid-March and that eliminates an extra stress on the kelts.
 
If rainbow trout in some way rely on salmon eggs, how do they survive in systems like the Esopus and the Finger Lakes, where they are the dominant spawners and often over winter in the streams?  The eggs are mainly fat for the fry to live on in early development, certainly there were less, and the moderate flows would also have dislodged less insect larvae, but steelhead are also adapted to live off fat and protein reserves, they just usually don't enter the tributaries already using them. Also remember Randy Jones' post about the fish regurgitating alewives in the lower river, and my question as to whether they were alewives or shad. Certainly, the early steelies in the Genny were gorging themselves on the shad that were running here at the same time.  But the fish I caught in both the Genny and the SR were healthy, not thin for their length, and did not show signs of any undue stress.
 
I could probably spin another half dozen, but my fingers are tired! 
 
Cheers! 
#64
Clint S
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 18:30:09 (permalink)
How many years in a row of poor returns before it impacts local pocketbooks and make a lasting mark. Will we see numbers of fishheads drop especially if next year is the same.  IMHO it will just make the bad behavior worse as folks will feel even mere pressure to rip and tear at the few fish they see.

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

#65
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 18:35:49 (permalink)
I think that was great information / thoughts to share and thank you !! If your fingers get to tired then let 2 b take over.
Such knowledge from those that live the system always help us that visit ..

PS:
I could share some info on my Eco system down here but don't think you'd like it.. The local ( Albany ) rag puts it public
post edited by hot tuna - 2014/12/18 18:39:21

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
#66
twobob
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 19:21:07 (permalink)
L
#67
twobob
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 19:22:52 (permalink)
C
#68
twobob
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 19:23:53 (permalink)
D
 
#69
twobob
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 19:25:03 (permalink)
I
 
#70
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 19:25:40 (permalink)
It is all total speculation for most part and so many factors can weigh in which all contribute to balancing aN ecosystem like the lake Ontario system. and great read there lucky. Clint I'd think if below "average" years persist a lot of guys will get weeded out...
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dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 21:18:12 (permalink)
How about the skeins in many of the chinooks of 2012 and 2013??? One side was underdeveloped on most...
#72
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2014/12/19 07:48:08 (permalink)
That's the first I've heard of that.  Was DEC appraised of the situation?  Not having killed a hen Chinook in at least 25 years, I would have little to go on in judging "normalcy", but I know two bait dealers who bought as much skein as they could get, so when I see either , I'll ask.  Speculatively, since the skeins develop fairly quickly into the space from which the digestive organs are shrinking, it may just be a function of which side has more space for growing or how successful an individual fish is in distributing the expanding mass (one of the reasons, I have always heard, for the early porposing gulping air to distribute things inside). 
#73
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/19 12:25:24 (permalink)
Lucky it may have been 2012 only... But it was most all of the early wild hens when that 20+ straight day run took place in 2012. I witnessed at least 10 that i cut up myself and spoke with a fish cleaning station who noticed a lot of it also. I haven't missed a season of seeing Chinook guts since 1990 and that was the only time I've ever seen it... Seemed odd... Those fish of 2012 "best ever season" (notice quotations) were the mature while this seasons mature fish (that showed up in low numbers) were 2 year olds... Maybe another correlation???
#74
r3g3
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Re: problem 2014/12/19 13:09:46 (permalink)
Food  for thought--
Steel  are often  displaying  lice compromising their health.
They are not getting usual high protein diets in the SR this year.
 The high protein eggs may well have helped them through  issues in the past without notice.
 If the depleted diet is a factor perhaps we aren't really dealing with a 'new' Steel problem but one that simply hasn't manifested itself till the King run diminished.. 
In nature so much is related. 
 
PS --who the heck did the lake report saying King were OK- all we heard last season was how the Kings in the lake sucked - to the point where we were watching with bated breath to see how the run was----or wasn't.
post edited by r3g3 - 2014/12/19 15:37:18
#75
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2014/12/19 18:16:46 (permalink)
"1985 – 2014 Lake Ontario Fishing Boat Survey Summary for April 15 - September 30, 2014 
Since 1985, NYSSDEC surveyed boats operating in New York waters of Lake Ontario’s main basin from April through September.  The data collected from counts and interviews of fishing boats are used to manage Lake Ontario’s multi-million dollar trout and salmon fishery and provide valuable data on other fish species.  Survey results from April 15 - September 30, 2014 are lake-wide averages, and therefore may not reflect fishing quality experienced during some months and in some areas of Lake Ontario. Lake Ontario angler effort directed at trout and salmon has remained stable for more than a decade, and anglers experienced good fishing quality in 2014 (i.e. catch rate = number of trout and salmon caught per charter boat angler hour).   Lake-wide Chinook salmon catch rates remained above the long term average for the 12th consecutive year (2003-2014).  Evaluation of monthly and regional Chinook catch rates indicate that across much of the NY shoreline, catch rates were good to excellent from April through the second half of June, relatively poor from mid-June through mid-August, and then improved during the second half of August.  Anglers experienced the 7th consecutive year of excellent rainbow trout fishing, with catch rates above average along the entire NY shoreline.  Lake trout catch rates declined relative to 2013, but remained well above average.  Brown trout fishing quality was good to excellent throughout most of the open lake season.  Coho salmon lake-wide catch rate was below average.  Fishing effort targeting smallmouth bass remained low despite improved catch rates in 2013 and 2014.  A final 2014 survey report will be available in spring 2015"
 
Jana Lantry is the biologist in charge of the survey, and this came out of Cape Vincent.  The pdf viewer I have does not allow me to cut graphs, but total catch was up slightly from last year.  The report goes out to a lot of people from fisheries advisory boards and the charter industry and the visitors boards.  It is not on the DEC website yet, but may be soon. 
#76
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2014/12/19 19:51:51 (permalink)
I was surveyed 3 times when I returned to Mexico port so I do know they were out. At least at the Mexico port in the August month the catch rates reported were dismal .

I know little about the western basin but from reading lake forums and charter reports the catch rate in the spring was good for Juvenile salmon, as I hear it always is there at that time. Once mid June and July rolled around the reports from that ( western basin ) was still the same and spreading to the east ( Oswego ) area. Lots of juvenile salmon, to the point captains were getting worried about next years class.
Most at that time switched to trout/ lakers.

That's the only reason I said that the data may be skewed.
Catches were good, mature salmon were not., hence " I " said we will have to wait and see what happens in the river to determine .
Is this due to the late arrival of salmon ? Possibly , you guys fished the river , I did not. I can say it seemed poor from a trib anglers perspective in forums .

Thanks for taking the time to provide the info L-13

PS:
The survey only asked if we caught fish, species , port and hrs / days fishing
post edited by hot tuna - 2014/12/19 19:58:07

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
#77
Clint S
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Re: problem 2014/12/19 21:55:52 (permalink)
lot's of interesting stuff here. lets hope we find put the reason at some point. possibly I will check the health of a few on Monday.

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

#78
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2014/12/19 22:42:22 (permalink)
Well, the local ditch had perfect water, and only a couple of other fishers, but it was not showing much sign of fish at all for anybody. One short tug and shake that could have been a stream trout.  Maybe tomorrow.  Good luck up on the river Clint.
 
L13
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Clint S
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Re: problem 2014/12/21 12:04:16 (permalink)

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

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r3g3
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Re: problem 2014/12/23 14:38:41 (permalink)
oops
post edited by r3g3 - 2014/12/23 21:39:26
#81
Clint S
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Re: problem 2014/12/25 11:47:45 (permalink)
http://www.bing.com/search?q=(Fitzsimons+et+al.+1998%3B+Tillitt+et+al.+2000&src=IE-TopResult&FORM=IE11TR&conversationid=629743AA499D40B08419CF9A2139CAEC
 
I only glanced at the article. It is about stressors increasing thiaminase in alvives.
 
 looks like you will have to click on the appropriate PDF article in the search, but it comes up.
 
post edited by Clint S - 2014/12/25 11:49:22

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

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r3g3
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Re: problem 2015/01/01 10:41:24 (permalink)
OK- soooo-- now that the Steelhead aren't dying so fast all seems OK on various internet postings here and there.
Theory seems to be  that those that were  'sick' are gone and all is  well now, with blame in some corners going to the weather on the lake as it affected feed fish and ultimately some of the Steel.
 Butttt -- all is OK now that the dying is minimal or stopped---PROBLEM OVER- YEEEEE HAAA
 
(what about the Kings ???)
#83
Clint S
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Re: problem 2015/01/01 17:27:49 (permalink)
But will there be spring fish, and how many are littering the bottom of the lake. As far as the kings my guess would be they are on the bottom of the lake and we are in for a few years of sub par runs. It's gonna take 3 years for this years stocked fish to come up and not to mention all the ''wild '' fish that will not be there to spawn and return.........

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

#84
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/01/01 23:35:33 (permalink)
dimebrite2
Most ice on the lake since 1977 could be playing a part somewhere in there too... I've heard opinions expressed towards the thick freeze on the lake can take a toll on baitfish... I'm sure it can take a toll on less than yearling salmonoids as well... I'd be shocked if lake Ontario collapsed completely in regards to salmonoids... Some lean years "could" be coming though....

I said this weeks ago and I still stand by it... Fish for your own desires and enjoy... That's about all one can do. The numbers guys could really get weeded out. Hearing more and more about opinions on this past salmon season being the worst ever... Time will tell.
#85
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2015/01/02 07:36:59 (permalink)
Too much bs propoganda and inflated opinions getting thrown around in the world...
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r3g3
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Re: problem 2015/01/02 08:16:57 (permalink)
I was being a bit snide with the YEE HAAA thing---
 
- Think the zones should be closed like they were for the Kings a few years ago- the disease MAY or MAY NOT affect fish still to come in this winter and spring but don't take chances on potential spring egg take.
Most would understand and appreciate the effort to protect the fisheries future.
In questionable times it seems appropriate to take some protective measures rather than just hope for a better future.
 I support whatever the fishery folks decide in these questionable times. Their track record is excellent IMHO.
 
 Personally stopped fishing till dropback season with all this happening.
 
  From my waders the King fishing was beyond poor this year and far lower than normal  natural spawning occurred for lack of fish and that the few  were quickly targeted on beds.
Unlike the past few banner King years  had the opportunity to fish almost weekly this past season from August into Nov. and think I have a decent view of what happened to the SR Kings despite the lake reports of many fish.
 
In regard to Hos and steel-- the few weeks they came in hard were great , however with the lack of Kings they were too often seen on rope.
One thing rarely mentioned  was the unusual number of very small Steel that ran in. They were quick and all the way up into the vines. Then nothing was heard or seen of them from my perches as the season got late.
 I know folks gear into larger fish but where the heck did all the shorts go- There were a lot of them. Hope they made it
Back to the lake?? Never saw them going back and there were enough that they should have been noticed -unless they returned quite late in the season when fewer folks were out.
 
  Am also quite concerned bout my favored Hos- they seem forgotten in the blogs with all the attention going to more popular Steel and Kings. Saw a number of dead cookie cutter Hos mid season.
 
 Schizamm I hate being so concerned bout this great fishery. Have been here since the 80s and have seen many ups and down- sooo--whatever it is will undoubtedly be cyclical if history repeats- hopefully while I can still fish-  lol.
post edited by r3g3 - 2015/01/02 09:39:27
#87
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/01/02 11:51:42 (permalink)
Rg3, those early steel stayed congregated in the snag up through trestle for quite a while... They were large numbers butThey were not eating though. Could those have been the fish(100's or maybe more???) that have all died? And yes cohoes were down.

Lucky, it's the internet and social media for sure and I agree with you. With Facebook and all other social networks this world is going to ****. Its almost as if everyone is turning against each other... Black vs. White, left vs. Right, police vs. The public the gubbament the military... Hatred is being instilled through text and propaganda that gets shoved down everyone's throats via the internet. Family members and friends break ties over political arguments and disagreements... Blatant racism is being strewned across our screens... I can go on and on but yes I agree with propaganda and inflated sock puppet opinions fueling the fire everywhere in this world
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dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2015/01/02 12:06:21 (permalink)
Rg3, forgot to add that winter cohoes have been showing up in the past two weeks in good numbers. First time in two years...
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r3g3
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Re: problem 2015/01/02 14:52:16 (permalink)
GREAT- thanks Andy- my faith is restoring as we speak- that also speaks well of the lake conditions for the fish right now IMHO
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