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r3g3
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Re: problem 2014/11/26 18:18:18 (permalink)
Fella on the other forum seeing 10 to 20 'dead floaters' a day DOWNRIVER  for 3 days straight.
NOT just released -nobody else around.
Another fella chimed in that he saw it as well where he was fishing.
Looks to be a real problem arising and not just in the upper zones areas. 
post edited by r3g3 - 2014/11/26 18:22:35
#31
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/11/27 00:35:21 (permalink)
To correct any wrong assumptions, I did not mean that the zones are the problem... But given the fact that added stress of fighting a fish is quite detrimental to its survival, the zones would be the most prone to "killing" fish. Does anyone remember when they closed the zones in 2007??? I remember every time looking off that bridge while it was closed that year to see nothing but large amounts of healthy unstressed fish. Fish congregate naturally above that bridge more so than any other spots I've ever seen. Its quite apparent that what they did that year was a good move as great some of the best I've ever seen) returns of all species came for the returning years after that...
#32
r3g3
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Re: problem 2014/11/27 07:57:20 (permalink)
Didn't think  you only meant the Zones Andy, but were indicating the issues of added stress on the Steel, and that the zones were areas of heavy fish populations and fishing.
Unfortunately what others are seeing elsewhere kinda seems to indicate the issue is manifesting itself regardless of the added stress of c and r- even downriver.
As the deads don't generally float down the entire river but die and drop it seems to me the problem is  large throughout the system.
Don't know that I have ever seen 30 floaters even when Kings were in real good and fishing great spots. Yea, deads are all over but 30 actual just dead  floaters-----no.
I may well agree -save as many as we can and shut it down for the sake of the future.
 Sad stuff.
#33
r3g3
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Re: problem 2014/11/27 08:34:29 (permalink)
Again, reading around- some have been seen like this low in the DSR in the early AM- It aint just the river but clearly a lake issue too, they are coming in with the lice.
Perhaps its the added pressure of running or that they just haven't been noticed dead in the large lake, but the lice seem to be out there attaching to the fish as someone mentioned earlier.
As this has only seemed a minor thing  in the past the lice must be increasing for some  reason-  one may well think it isn't just the Steel being affected.
Ontario does not appear to be the first Great Lake affected by this.
Always something, but still sad stuff.
 
Similar reports from other Ontario tribs ?????
post edited by r3g3 - 2014/11/27 10:35:01
#34
r3g3
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Re: problem 2014/11/27 10:40:46 (permalink)
Thanks Bob--good read.
In a closed system like a brook or stream it makes sense when the fish are residents..
Gotta wonder bout an ocean sized lake that the fish run from though ??
 Did they control it in Erie ??
#35
Clint S
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Re: problem 2014/12/15 20:00:29 (permalink)
Here is a list of articles ect I have come across on this. FWIW they do not think it is gill lice as the issue was worse in 2012.
http://www.syracuse.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2014/12/scientist_puzzled_about_whats_killing_steelhead_in_the_salmon_river_and_other_la.html
 
http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=3868#.VI-rFJU5DIX
 
 
This was an e mail received from Scott Prindle, the Biologist in charge of the SR.

 There have been steelhead acting strangely and dying for several weeks now. We
sent an initial sample to Cornell University Vet School to see if was being
caused by a disease, virus or parasite. They found nothing conclusive on those
fish.

We think it may be related to thiamine levels in the fish. Similar observations
have been made in other Great Lakes in the past. Last week we captured several
fish and took muscle and liver samples to be sent off to a Federal Fish Health
lab to determine their thiamine levels. Additionally we are holding some fish in
a pen at the hatchery that are acting sick and have injected them with a
thiamine solution. This has worked in the past to revive fish that were
suffering from thiamine deficiency.
 
Here is a set of articles about  the great lakes salmon . it I old but  has some good stuff
http://www.jsonline.com/n...97825z1-284550501.html

Unfortunately while we may be able to determine that thiamine is the culprit,
there is not much that can be done from a practical standpoint.

I'll let you know what we hear from the Feds. 

Scott" 

  

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

#36
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2014/12/15 20:31:33 (permalink)
So if that was the issue for a few decades on the atlantics , whats the real issue ? A lake wide crash ?
Hope the stripers run strong but then again I hear there are issues there too of another sort..
Guess the best hole for a hopeless fisher like me is ice but the dang weather seems to being a big problem of late .
Geesh , can't catch even a break . Lol

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
#37
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 07:03:04 (permalink)
It definitely has potential for disaster. Since 2005 the DEC really started keying in on wild stocks in the system. Maybe they were too late? 3 years in a row of phenomenal salmon runs followed by the worst ever... Lake trout populations are up... Could the lake be running out of bait??? Notice the question marks.
#38
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 07:51:34 (permalink)
There it is again  " The worst ever".  Where is the data or are we just talking a coupe of people who got out every couple of weeks impressions of it? 
#39
r3g3
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 08:11:56 (permalink)
For those who knew where and how there were Salmon- but clearly NOT like any normal year.
 There WERE dead Steel early on and more than normal too. I attributed it to improper release and play but ???
Did see many coming down on top while upriver in the first parts of the run and also attributed that to improper release and tired fish from above.
There were a LOT of Steel in October including very  many shorts- now somebody says there are no jacks around ???
Really looking to the day the question is answered - even if we don't like it at least we will know why.
#40
bigbear2012
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 08:20:38 (permalink)
It has been a strange year.
But maybe its just a natural cycling.
Then again it could be a disease or parasite....i haven't heard about the bacteria infections they were worrying about a couple years ago doing any harm... the whirling trout parasite that spread in the 90's hasn't made headlines in a while....lets blame it on the dsr and tailwater lodge!!! lol

wishin i was fishin
#41
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 09:19:54 (permalink)
OK lucky maybe not "ever" is the final conclusion... But in 25 consecutive avid years its the worst I saw and many folks who have been at it even longer including lake guys are quite puzzled themselves... And NO, none of my opinion is based off of just a few outtings every few weeks
#42
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 09:34:19 (permalink)
And I guess you didn't notice the question marks ???
#43
hot tuna
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 10:37:23 (permalink)
Settle down guys , lol. We are not the scientists, just some average fishers discussing thoughts . I have been fishing on the Trib a grand total of once this fall and that was for trout.
I have only drawn any info from other forums and as we know most is just rumor. It does however seem there is a big problem in most all the Great Lakes systems. Some have crashed and if a solution is not found , this one seems on course. I know a one off year is far from that but it also may be the early warning signs of things to come.. The fishery overseers must keep pro active ( I'm sure they are) and so much information does come from those who spend time on the water
post edited by hot tuna - 2014/12/16 10:46:18

"whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
#44
bigbear2012
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 10:41:29 (permalink)
but i did sleep at a holiday inn last night

wishin i was fishin
#45
r3g3
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 11:07:38 (permalink)
I have a lot of faith in the NY folks in charge of the fishery.
They have developed a world class system where little or nothing was there to begin with and have manage it well throughout a number of ups and downs.
 Ma Nature is always handing out some kind of barrier and the State folks always get around it with professional expertise.
If fish go back to old low  numbers for a bit while they get it straightened out -well so be it.
A part of the ebb and flow of the fishery I guess- although its hard to adjust to with very low years or disease following banner seasons.
 
Personally  doubt its whirling disease as from what I read it hits the young of the year and there is little about it hitting adults.
Also doubt its the gill lice as fish seem to have had them right along albeit in smaller amounts.
Might agree the greater amount of lice weakens the fish and might be  factor in their strength fighting off something else though.
Water levels and temps don't seem to be a factor so there is certainly something else happening IMHO.
Chemical reactions in baitfish are perhaps a factor but with an increase in Lakers ( which are greatly affected by the bait fish thing) it may well not be the answer with this dilema-
 We will see----
post edited by r3g3 - 2014/12/16 14:35:08
#46
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2014/12/16 19:41:46 (permalink)
I heard from my folks at DEC today, nearly word for word what Clint has.  It will be interesting to see what develops. Let's hope for the best.
#47
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 06:44:20 (permalink)
Rember its the fisherman of concern that the DEC needs... It was fisherman that provided concern and the first specimen to be evaluated at Cornell. Scientists we are not but fisherman we are and the DEC would have quite a tough job to do with out our efforts, thoughts and opinions... Seeing is believing and can be quite factual in itself. Yes tuna, following fishing forums for info on the "problem" at hand is not the best fact base. I started this thread based off of first hand knowledge that I obtained and every bit was fact... Dying fish, many having gill lice, and specimens being taken to Cornell. Should we really just sit back and act like a lifeless dumby who has no opinion or concern??? (Notice the question marks) the articles that clint posted up were articles I have read also in which I have contemplated already. Special thanks to him for sharing... And its nice to hear some other opinions and concerns... My opinion may be getting a little too expensive though... Might have to start using dollar signs instead of question marks
#48
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 06:47:33 (permalink)
Maybe it would be worth letting the DEC know about 2012 and 2013 late drop back season as many fish that made it back to the estuary made it no further... Swirlers galore both of those seasons at the end in the estuary... But wait, that's based off of just a couple days outting and opinion...
#49
bigbear2012
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 07:27:31 (permalink)
Its very possible that all of the stress factors combined are having a synergistic effect on them....they ran early (aka less O2 in the water, and more people beating them up), longer in the river (less food), gill lice (less O2 into their system and makes them more suseptable to other infections) and who knows there may be an undiagnosed disease at play too.

wishin i was fishin
#50
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 17:21:31 (permalink)
Cornell is still unsure...parasitic disease is quite unevident in any organs or filets of collected troubled fish. But gill lice are strongly evident... B1 defficiency seems to be their best guess. Several healthy lake erie trib fish have been detained and given same injections as Ontario trib fish that were detained to broaden the experimental results for observation... Google it for specifics
#51
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 17:23:01 (permalink)
If it is a nutritional disease that is not good...
#52
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 17:24:01 (permalink)
Nutrition comes from food... But that's just my opinion
#53
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 18:12:22 (permalink)
Question: are the weakened steelhead that are nutritionally imbalanced more prone to acquire gill lice?
#54
Clint S
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 21:37:19 (permalink)
Another thing to consider is that although there were salmon in the river there were far less than usual. These fish usually gorge on eggs and they were just  not there this year,  so more feeding on other stuff and possibly less nutrition overall  from the  lack eggs. I know this year egg patterns were less successful for me than nymphs. I do not think they ( weakened fish) are more prone to get the lice, but they would definitely be more apt to suffer ill consequences because of them.  The lice are just another nail in the coffin..............
 

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

#55
Clint S
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 21:41:38 (permalink)

The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.  ~Babylonian Proverb

#56
dimebrite2
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Re: problem 2014/12/17 21:53:16 (permalink)
I agree about another nail in the coffin clint... But just like a sickened or weakened human or animal... Once weakened its a domino effect... Am I saying gill lice are the problem??? No I am not... Are they latching on to potentiallu diseased weakened steelhead??? yes.... But only my opinion... I would think that the lack of salmon has something to do with it also for the sake of the beating the early run steelhead took from the salmon crowd... Lack of eggs may be effecting it to... Domino effect could be taking place. Why such a lack of salmon though??? Questions with no answers thus far... My recent findings are that biologists are leaning towards nutritional disease for these dying steelhead. That's scary in my book
#57
fichy
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 06:36:49 (permalink)
That is a bad scenario, Andy. It's more system collapse than a specific pathogen . I have noticed that the steelhead I've caught and the ones I've seen are fairly thick and do not appear to be undernourished. The swirlers i saw seemed to be thinner. Just a very limited observation.  Clint, I thought the egg fly non-productivity was just my lousy technique, I fished them way less. Especially since  I didn't see  scattered eggs on the bottom like I have in the past. My best fly has been a bunny flesh fly and larger wooly buggers are  producing for the non-ripping fly guys.  Hopefully, this forum isn't experiencing system collapse. It does have a virus from Ohio that is hard to kill off, but hopefully most will be immune.
#58
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 07:47:43 (permalink)
According to the Boat survey report that came out yesterday, salmon and trout numbers were up for the year.  The report does mention a drop off in caches from June to mid August, but then notes a return to normalcy for the remainder of August and September.
 
The Gill lice Article that was posted , it should be noted, is still discussing and outbreak in Wisconsin inland brook trout in 2009.
 
 
#59
Lucky13
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Re: problem 2014/12/18 07:53:05 (permalink)
It will be interesting to see what comes from DEC when they get the lab reports.
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