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dimebrite2
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2014/11/24 04:51:51 (permalink)

problem

Guys some guides have been making efforts to net swirling/dying fish the past few days. All riddled with gill lice. One guide has netted 30 in the past 3 days... Not good... Not good at all. The higher water will be a good thing as the fish will get better oxygen source and less pressure from anglers...
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    twobob
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 06:27:12 (permalink)
    b
    post edited by twobob - 2014/12/16 04:50:26
    #2
    dimebrite2
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 06:38:35 (permalink)
    Dec is not involved thus far... Some were scent to Cornell for study. But at first sight all swirling fish that have been netted have the gill lice. Many thoughts have been expressed by some seasoned vets... A lot of dead fish around as well. If you read up on the gill lice it is noted that they are deprived oxygen and have a much higher mortality rate when hooked or taken out of the water when gill lice are present. If the problem persists I'd say shut down the lfz did the Time being!
    #3
    fichy
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 06:46:34 (permalink)
    I would not doubt there's some kind of stress related disease or harmful organism springing up. This low water, as we've all said, blows chunks.  I righted 2 the other day and told some guy it was because of rock massages. The release methods are truly horrific . Nancy fumbled with the camera the other day and I put the fish back in the water after counting 3. F' it the pic wasn't worth hurting the steel.  It swam away like it's tail was on fire. The others never left the water.  I see people releasing steel like they were tunoids off a high gunwhaled boat.  Take them by the tail and head and torpedo them after a 2 minute pic and vid session with 3 phones. .  People are acting like Goldman-Sachs before the crash of '08. Plunder the stocks now!!!!!  And just like them, they'll expect the govt. to bail them out. It's all the DEC's fault. I hope Lucky, in his usual fashion, finds some stuff out for us. For now, I'll keep going, but no more hero shots and I'll be only using the 8 with 2x and living with a fewer fish fooled.
    post edited by fichy - 2014/11/24 06:52:06
    #4
    Lucky13
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 07:35:21 (permalink)
    First off, not all of us consider 350 low water, and I much prefer it for swinging flies to the 1000+ I've had to contend with for the last few years.  I think 2bob and I have both indicated, as did the fish that made it upriver, that 350 is more than adequate for them to run and for many to escape the "gauntlet" in town.  And 350 is more than adequate to dissolve adequate oxygen, concentration of which has nothing to do with flow unless the fish are crammed together like in a  hatchery, but is much more related to temperature and turbulence.    I have not heard anything about gill lice in Lake Ontario, but I recalls seeing a lot of discussion about this happening in Erie tribs last year, and anything that happens up in LE, eventually gets down to us in Lake Ontario.  Somebody probably brought them here in a bait bucket!  But gill lice have been a normal thing for west coast steel.  But I'll send out some questions when I get to the email lists at work.
     
    I'm always using the 8 anymore (since the 6 got stolen), and 2x is pretty much standard as well.  I'll see how this holds up in winter mode if it stays up above freezing, other wise its 12 lb mainline with a 8lb leader.
     
    L13
    #5
    bigbear2012
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 08:28:34 (permalink)
    really wacked the erie steelies over the last few years
     

    wishin i was fishin
    #6
    r3g3
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 10:13:39 (permalink)
    Does it just get to them in the tribs or is it a lake issue too ??
    #7
    bigbear2012
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 10:42:16 (permalink)
    they get it in the lake...and are loaded by the time they hit the streams
     

    wishin i was fishin
    #8
    dimebrite2
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 16:22:38 (permalink)
    The whole thing doesn't add up well for me. A well below average salmon season and many dead steelhead. 350 is a sustainable flow but its been just that since late august... No flush or washing. Fish hanging in the mouths waiting to run early on... A good washing couldn't hurt... Biologists insight on it would be great.
    #9
    dimebrite2
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 16:23:44 (permalink)
    Lucky... Is it sea lice that you're referring to with west coast steel?
    #10
    fichy
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 17:30:58 (permalink)
    Yeah 350 is  easy to fish, but it sucks that the fish can be snagged easily for a whole season and are stressed for their entire stay in the river. Better flows would protect them and provide better winter habitat. I was taking the long view, not just what happens in Oct. There's lots of dead and dying steel, more than I've seen before by a large margin. Maybe that's just normal.
    #11
    Lucky13
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 17:42:59 (permalink)
    DEC has collected samples and submitted them to the Lab at Cornell.  They are not convinced that it would just be the lice, there are other ideas but they are just speculation until the lab results come back.  But the lice are a natural phenomenon, both in fresh and saltwater.
     
    L13
    #12
    r3g3
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 18:12:25 (permalink)
    After the King non run I hope there isnt something out there having negative affect on the whole fishery.
    #13
    dimebrite2
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 18:30:33 (permalink)
    Yup, not claiming that gill lice is the ultimate problem... But its prevalent in many dead or dying fish. Yet many very healthy fish have come through the system and big...... Odd year... But below average flows and heavy mid fall pressure definitely doesn't help. The lice deprive them of oxygen absorption... I remember two years ago seeing and even catching a few with the gill lice. 2012 was a low water slaughter fest for steelhead... Crazy pressure all season long with a warm winter... Many of this years fish are returns from that crop...Let's see what the Cornell biologists say. I'm game for a decrease in fish... Less fish=less people and BIGGER fish!!! :)
    #14
    twobob
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    Re: problem 2014/11/24 19:01:19 (permalink)
     
     
    T
     
     
    post edited by twobob - 2014/12/16 04:51:42
    #15
    Lucky13
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 07:55:45 (permalink)

     
    There's Pineveille since  September 1. pretty much long term average through mid October, then low since, but, of course, WE HAVE NO HAD ANY RAIN  TO SPEAK OF.
     
    Ya needs water to dump water.
     
    Oh, and I've only caught 3 steelhead this year in the Genesee, so that must mean that there has been a catastrophic failure of the entire run, even though I can only get down there for a couple of hours on Saturday or Sunday, and generally it has been on higher water and dropping temperatures.
     
    L13
    #16
    dimebrite2
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 09:49:09 (permalink)
    Two Bob... I don't think anyone's saying ThE flow is the main problem... More so saying given the problem at hand the lower flow is not helping for many reasons... Lfz is a sanctuary and steel get played multiple times daily... They closed it in 07 back when we had the draught... Why not now?
    #17
    dimebrite2
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 09:54:05 (permalink)
    Thanks for the chart lucky... Yes they have not run water over 375 until just now... Don't understand why youre trying to say anything about an entire collapse of the fishery??? Did anyone say that? I must've of missed it if someone did.
    #18
    hot tuna
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 10:20:19 (permalink)
    Has anybody stopped to think that this is an artificial , put and take fishery ? The vast majority of fish come from tanks.
    Do you think that if there were a problem a correction stocking would happen ?

    In the perfect case , natural spawning with self sustaining returns would in reality be way more cost effective . We know, at least in my lifetime , that will never come to happen.
    So this is in effect, the after affects of what we have .
    By no means am I saying proper handling or ethics shouldn't be taken but as we all again know , the SR is littered with all kinds of ppl and no matter what , will still be .

    "whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
    #19
    twobob
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 15:46:50 (permalink)
    c
     
     
    post edited by twobob - 2014/12/16 04:53:03
    #20
    pafisher
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 17:28:57 (permalink)
    The section that should be closed Sept & Oct is from 2A down to the black,or make the entire river C&R Fly fish only,or enforce the regs and make the snaggers PAY!However speaking only of the Steel it is 98% put and take,if they would n't stock a zillion fingerlings there would be no Steel to speak of.
    What's the best way to contact the state about my ideas?
    #21
    dimebrite2
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 18:14:48 (permalink)
    Contact a local legislator jack :)
    post edited by dimebrite2 - 2014/11/25 18:18:27
    #22
    dimebrite2
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 18:25:09 (permalink)
    My reason for posting what I had heard was not intended to turn in to a finger pointing match or who knows what match... More so just to inform. Wish I had just kept my mouth shut. Opinions are free and that's all I expressed besides stating hard facts of dying fish and many fish found with gill lice... After a month of them getting beat on. In my opinion, why close the lfz for some moldy oldy salmon in draught seasons rather than a living continuous breed of a spectacular trout that will run the river up to 5 years if nature allows it... As said... Wish I kept my mouth shut... A population crash followed by a big decrease of internet hype may just turn this river around :)
    #23
    Lucky13
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 18:40:13 (permalink)
    So what I've been able to find out about the lice, they find a spot on the gill or support structures and burrow in and spend the rest of their days there.  They produce a lot of eggs, and the larva have an easier time finding another structure to attach to (another host fish) when the velocity of the water is lower.  As Copepods, they also grow faster in warmer water.  They interfere with gas transfer by reducing the amount of tissue that can accomplish it, and this is a stress on the fish.  As parasites, they should not destroy their host, but the additional stress of being played repeatedly may tip the fish.  The parasite spreads more rapidly in confined fish or areas where the fish are concentrated, like maybe the upper river where they have to stack up or go back downstream. And we've just gone through the perfect storm of prolonged lower water and higher temperatures with the late fall.  So, yes, more water earlier may have helped.  In Wisconsin, where there were problems with brook trout populations, they encouraged anglers to take their fish, to reduce the density of hosts until the "bloom" of lice died back into control, and trout populations started to be less infested.  At any rate, DEC is investigating, both one of their pathology teams and Cornell are looking at possible causes.  The fish that were sampled were described as moribund, alive but obviously having a lot of trouble, which allows for checking for VHS and Type E botulism, I believe. 
     
    L13 
    post edited by Lucky13 - 2014/11/25 18:44:43
    #24
    hot tuna
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    Re: problem 2014/11/25 19:41:17 (permalink)
    Db, no reason you should feel not to share information.. I as a species am always learning.. if and when my pea brain stops absorbing , it's toast.. Thank You for the insight bro.. If there is something I am doing wrong and can correct , Id like to help  ..
    My comment was just a weary throw it on the wall and see if it sticks.. I still think the Tribs, and yes we all talk SR (mostly) have come a long way .. Funny how pre-internet it was so different but still so much alike..
     
    L-13,
    I'm clueless so I did some wiki on gill lice also.. Seen the Wisconsin report, a few scientific studies and some just collage programs as well.. The parasite is known, the findings vary but stress became the common factor.. Does it not always though ?
     
    Ah well, My brain is tuning into a Move Me brightly "goinn down the road" mode.
    Happy Holidays to ALL , fish well..
    Peace & Tuna
     

    "whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
    #25
    twobob
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    Re: problem 2014/11/26 04:32:43 (permalink)
    n
     
    post edited by twobob - 2014/12/16 04:53:51
    #26
    twobob
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    Re: problem 2014/11/26 05:51:47 (permalink)
    dimebrite2
    My reason for posting what I had heard was not intended to turn in to a finger pointing match or who knows what match... More so just to inform. Wish I had just kept my mouth shut. Opinions are free and that's all I expressed besides stating hard facts of dying fish and many fish found with gill lice... After a month of them getting beat on. In my opinion, why close the lfz for some moldy oldy salmon in draught seasons rather than a living continuous breed of a spectacular trout that will run the river up to 5 years if nature allows it... As said... Wish I kept my mouth shut... A population crash followed by a big decrease of internet hype may just turn this river around :)



    Don't think that what is going on in any way is finger pointing.
    Its a discussion.
     
    #27
    Lucky13
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    Re: problem 2014/11/26 07:44:35 (permalink)
    My comments about the Genny run derive from the judgement of some that this was a non run year, based on observations that are intermittent at best.  Based on my own intermittent observations, it was a banner run in the SR, but other than moldy Kings, the Genny is next to fishless.  As to C+R and closure to protect the fish, the DEC program is based on getting adequate returns to the hatchery for egg take, after that get the fish out of the river.  The fish are getting beat to death in the Fly zones, lice or no lice, partially because a lot of "fly anglers" are actually stealth snaggers, so a fatigued fish that would not be a player for a dead drifter or a swinger is now "force fed" into action over and over.  My concern now is what impact the infestation will have on ability to get eggs for the steelhead program, as the literature out there indicates that the combined stress of the lice and sexual maturation can be fatal for hens.
     
    As to less fish, I'm one hundred percent in favor of eliminating the King completely from the mix, that would get rid of a big bunch of people from the river, alleviate stench problems, make lots of the local residents who are not in the fisher fleecing business happy, etc.  Make the whole lake C+R, that will weed out a bunch of yellow rope types from the steelhead mix, maybe just chuck the whole program and get back to the restoration business, Lake Trout and Atlantic Salmon..... Gabba gabba gabba.....
     
    L13 
    #28
    twobob
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    Re: problem 2014/11/26 09:00:08 (permalink)

     
    post edited by twobob - 2014/12/16 04:54:38
    #29
    Lucky13
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    Re: problem 2014/11/26 18:01:00 (permalink)
    I was not in anyway thinking that what I could fantasize as a "program" was anything that would be entertained in reality, hence gabba.... 
     
    From what I saw, anything that removes the lice removes the fish.  But fish can survive with the lice with no additional stresses.  It will be interesting to see what comes from DEC when they get the lab reports.
     
    L13 
    #30
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