Helpful ReplyLetter to the PA Fish Commission

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jug
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2014/08/25 14:08:39 (permalink)

Letter to the PA Fish Commission

A letter I wrote to the PFBC today. Thought I'd share it with everyone. I'm sure I'll get some flack from some of the guys here but maybe I'll get some support as well.
 
jug
Hello,
 
I’m 28 years old and have been fishing since I was able to walk. I love fishing but I’m afraid the current state of the sport is very lopsided and unbalanced here in Pennsylvania, which is the reason I am writing you. I’m sure you already know where I’m going with this.
            Here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the Fish Commission caters to trout fishermen only. Very little is done to improve the fishing for of any other species, even bass which is a prized sport fish most other states. Every year it’s the same scenario. Opening day is a circus. Lines are crossed and tangled, dead trout and gut piles lay everywhere, plastic bobbers hang from low limbs, and many “fishermen” take home a bag of trout that will sit in their freezer until they are no longer edible because the guy who caught them feels he “paid for those fish.” If that’s what you call fishing I’m not interested.
            It’s no secret that the trout is Pennsylvania’s money fish, but why just trout? Why not stock a variety of species? The typical novice angler may get a thrill out of catching a few trout, but to most advanced anglers who have loyally purchased a fishing license from you year after year, it is a weak fish not worth pursuing. I buy a trout stamp every year but I have not fished for trout in almost five years. I purchase this stamp at additional cost only so that I can fish for the carp that inhabit your trout approved waters.
There are plenty of other species we could be stocking more of here in Pennsylvania. Bass, carp, and catfish are all huge in southern states. People rave over walleye fishing a little north of us. All of these are great sport fish that present a challenge to any seasoned angler. These fish not only require skill and technique, but put up a great fight. Isn’t that what the sport of fishing is all about? Or is it about the money? Selling trout stamps and keeping fish because “well, I paid for them”?
I hesitated bringing my concerns to you because I already know nothing will change. I will get a typical response about fingerling stockings, most of which are eaten before reaching legal size, and the Commission will continue to stock loads of trout for the yearly circus.
 
Thanks for your time,
Chris 


I'M ON A MISSION
IM GOING FISHING
#1
AndyLee
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 14:46:32 (permalink)
What they should write back to you:
 
"Bass and catfish populations are capable of replenishing on their own in most commonwealth waters.  Carp is a non-native species and considered a garbage fish by most.   We have a massive Great Lake in our Commonwealth that is full of the species of fish you mention, in addition to many other lakes and rivers.  Without stocking programs, trout would be limited to a relative few native streams which contain mostly small brook trout.
 
Perhaps you are unaware, but the PAFBC stocks walleye, muskellunge, catfish, pike, perch, crappie, shad, striped bass, largemouth bass, smallmouth bass, sauger, and panfish generally as juveniles throughout the state.   Many anglers buy a fishing license primarily or exclusively to fish for trout and do not target the other species that our state stocks. "
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DRod
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 15:03:37 (permalink)
Might be a little more profitable writing directly to or calling the fish commissioner for your region.  Assuming it's the southwest (per your Twin Lakes reference) that would be Rocco Ali.  
 
Met him this summer since he's also a physical therapist and was treating me, and had the opportunity to have several conversations with him about his work on the commission.  Didn't talk to him specifically about the trout program or about the other opportunities you brought up, but I did get the impression from our conversations that he does honestly care about fishermen in the southwest and providing more opportunities for us.  He told me quite a bit about his involvement in getting the state to step up in restoring the dam and Glade Run Lake in Butler County and about some steps he's taking to try to get the same thing to happen at Hereford Manor in Beaver County.  
 
Trout bring the revenue for the PFBC, there's no doubt about that.  I do agree with your sentiments though that it would be nice to see less focus on trout and more focus on other species that at least have an opportunity to be somewhat self-sustaining in many waters in the southwest, especially in waters that aren't conducive to long term trout survival.  
 
 
 
 
#3
jug
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 15:32:03 (permalink)
DRod, thanks, Ill look him up and see if he can be of any help. Where did I mention Twin Lakes though?

I know Im not gonna get anywhere with this alone, but if we all voice our opinions, we may have a slight chance. So im starting it. Anyone else who wants to join me in trying to make a change is more than welcome to do so. Id like to encourage everyone who wants better fishing in Pennsylvania to contact the PFBC. Be firm but friendly. Cussing and getting nasty will get us no where.

Here is the "Contact Us" page on the PFBC's website:
http://www.fish.state.pa.us/inform.htm

I'M ON A MISSION
IM GOING FISHING
#4
DRod
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 16:04:50 (permalink)
jug
Where did I mention Twin Lakes though?



My bad, guess you didn't here.  Just remember you talking about fishing Twin quite a bit in previous threads.  Been around here quite awhile, but messed up my previous log in stuff.
post edited by DRod - 2014/08/25 16:08:02
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FishinGuy
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 16:07:14 (permalink)
IMO its all a Money thing. They already have the trout hatcheries in pa. And if I'm not mistaken its a lot cheaper and easier to get a trout to adulthood than the other fish species. I totally agree that the trout stocking program is mostly just a waste because the majority of waters stocked can't sustain them through the summer. I hope you get someone's attention on this. I'd love to see them prioritize sustainable fishes in their stocking efforts. I also think stocking minnows in some waters. especially those with big bass regs, but only 10" bass, would really improve the fishing in the long run.
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 17:08:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rnglgdj 2014/08/25 17:57:39
I found an interesting article last year, when a similar debate was brought up on trout.  Although, I am convinced they focus on trout, since they make most of their money on the spectacle of opening day and dedicated stocking truck chasers.  That said, most stocked trout do not reproduce in our waters.  Therefore, they can stock the waters, without having to worry about an introduced species taking over the waterway.  Brown trout seem to take over some streams though.  They do spend a lot of money managing other waters that do not recieve trout.  There are reasons of why they electrofish and survey lakes.  They try their best to keep lakes from stunted populations (caused mostly by too many fish naturally breeding).
#7
Rnglgdj
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 18:04:55 (permalink)
I agree with just about all the comments.
 
I like the one about big bass regulations with 10" bass.
 
Now with this upcoming special panfishing on Sept 1 where the length is going to be waved how many sub legal crappies will be taken out of the special pan fish lakes.
 
I believe too many warm water fish are taken out of waters that cannot afford the loss.
 
It would be great if a different attitude is taken about taking fish home.
 
I know there are certain types that take  ALL the fish they catch home.
 
Sure wish there would be a change in mind set!!!!! 
 
JMO.
 
 
 
#8
SevenMileShowcase
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 19:40:19 (permalink)
What I hope they write back:
 
Hello uninformed uneducated citizen,
 
We have a trout stamp, and yes if you bought one you helped pay for these fish! Almost all the fish you mentioned we stock in many lakes and reproduce on their own. There are plenty of streams and lakes where we do not stock trout where you can find catfish, carp and walleye. Please read a book and do some research. Your argument stinks. We stock other species of fish throughout the commonwealth and if you do some research, not just where they are but maybe how to target them, you would be more successful. 
 
Also how do BASS, CARP and CATFISH provide a seasoned angler with a challenge?

East side love is living on the west end
#9
dakota kid
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 19:41:51 (permalink)
It's cheaper to stock 10,000 fingerlings knowing that only 10%-20% will survive rather than raise them in captivity until they're legal size. That's pretty much how it happens in nature, well with trout anyway. anyway. Plus the smaller fingerlings stand a better chance to acclimate to the new environment by the time they grow up. I've seen piles of dead stockies in certain waters that died from the shock of the new environment. It happened multiple years at the waterworks pond when they stock it in the fall for the kids. 
 
If you really want to improve fishing in PA take some kids fishing and teach them how to spend time with mother nature in a respectful and appreciative way. Often times those behaving in ways we don't approve of have no idea that they're doing something wrong. If you show them a better way, they'll more than likely adopt it as their own.  
#10
anzomcik
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 22:17:03 (permalink)
http://fbweb.pa.gov/stocking/WWCWStockingDetailsCurrent_RFP.aspx
 
I hope this link above works, it is the page on the PFBC that gives the current year stocking by county and the body of water.
 
http://fbweb.pa.gov/stocking/WWCWStockingDetailsHistorical_RFP.aspx
 
This link is prior year stocking for a county and the body of water.
 
It may or may not be what you are looking for but it is something. I hope it helps
 
Also this is warm water fish, they also have a cold water fish page
#11
DRod
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/25 23:10:54 (permalink)
After reading through some of the responses, I'm gonna guess Jeb that your thoughts are geared more towards the small lakes in the southwest - county park lakes like Twin, Mammoth and Keystone, and most of the Fish Commission owned lakes.  
 
There's only so much those smaller lakes can support, and trout provide the most bang for the PFBC buck in those waters.  Fishing the 3 Rivers or some of the larger lakes in the area (KPD, Arthur, Yellow Creek, Crooked Creek, etc) that are managed for warm water fish can be pretty daunting without a boat, but if you put in the time, there are good fish to be had even for shore fishermen.  
#12
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 00:08:29 (permalink)
@Sevenmile..............

With all do respect, my PA. general fishing license fee helps pay for the 'almighty trout' that, you appear to praise. Your trout stamp fee is now banking a general fund used for the purchase of land easement and improvements around Lake Erie and her tributaries. Last I knew, PBFC was forced to shut down several of their 'anointed trout' hatcheries (by the EPA) and there is no immediate plans to reopen the hatcheries because the money from your trout stamp is needed for Erie.

Sorry to read that you, a "seasoned angler", can only find a challenge in catching pellet sipping fish released into the wild. Last I knew, a guy can catch trout using red worms, crawlers and even corn. The very same baits used to catch carp. Speaking of carp; do you eat those nasty tasting pond reared starving trout you find to be so challenging??
#13
SevenMileShowcase
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 02:29:38 (permalink)
lol, your a clown
 
thats called an erie stamp THATS WHY IT WAS CREATED FOR PUBLIC ACCESS TO THE TRIBS ... again do some research. . . i dont fish for stockies either and practice C&R on all my catches. i started out with stockies and anyone who wants to go for wild trout i would refer honing in your skills there. I dont understand what is challenging about a bottom dwelling fish. also a sucker egg is bright yellow and they run in the spring, more than likely that is why the trout is eating it along with the other fish. stocked trout fishing in PA is basically intended as a put and take fishery, minus the regulated waters. . . its pretty common sense, WE FISHERMAN PAY FOR THEM TO BE PUT THERE SO WE CAN CATCH AND EAT THEM AS IT IS OUR RIGHT TO TAKE A LIMIT ACCORDING TO THE PFBC
 
PS the OP brought up a seasoned angler having more of a challenge with those species but that would require you knowing how to read
 
post edited by SevenMileShowcase - 2014/08/26 02:34:16

East side love is living on the west end
#14
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 10:07:49 (permalink)
CLOWN???????

I'll have you know; I 'represent' that remark. B-)

Being a clown makes it so much more fun bringing out the fools.

P.T. Barnum was given credit for the phrase "There is a sucker born every minute".

I'm sure P.T. was not referring to the fish but; one just took my bait 'hook, line and, sinker'.
#15
StewFc
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 11:58:25 (permalink)
Jug,
 
I have had very poor results in getting the PAFBC to return any correspondence. I hope you have better luck. The bottom line, as I'm sure you know, is that they don't have to and they face NO consequence for choosing not to do so. It amazes me that the PUBLIC sector is permitted to ignore the PUBLIC the way that would drive a private sector entity out of business. Again, I wish you more success than I have ever experienced.
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DRod
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 12:15:11 (permalink)
SevenMileShowcase
Also how do BASS, CARP and CATFISH provide a seasoned angler with a challenge?



Fishing is fun for whatever species you prefer.
 
But let's face it, we make a really big deal about fooling a critter with a brain the size of a dime.  
 
 
#17
SevenMileShowcase
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 16:54:42 (permalink)
you cant fix stupid

East side love is living on the west end
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 19:58:32 (permalink)
Finding that out must of been a real heart breaker........... eh?
#19
SevenMileShowcase
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 20:24:46 (permalink)
No known for many years. Have you ever been to the windy knob and been there done that?? ive never fished there, but i heard the suckers and cats really give a good tug there. check it out.
 
btw jug, i would really like to know why you think those species are more of a challenge and why we as a whole commonwealth should vest more money into their stocking and rearing?
post edited by SevenMileShowcase - 2014/08/26 20:27:24

East side love is living on the west end
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/26 21:24:19 (permalink)
click.... click...........click........BZZZZZzzzzzzzzz............. FISH ON!!!
#21
jug
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/27 01:41:25 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
click.... click...........click........BZZZZZzzzzzzzzz............. FISH ON!!!


Nothing more exciting than that.

I find carp, catfish, and just about any larger fish to be more challenging because of the sheer size and the fight in the fiah. Also with carp, youve got to figure out what they want. Theres also a strategy in creating a long term bait that carp will seek out for not only its taste and presentation but nutritional value. I did my share of trout fiahing as a kid and up into my late teens. I see no challenge, no fun. Its very boring to me. The o ly thing i like about trout fishing is the scenerey when fiahing the creek. As for the fishing itself i can do without.

Also i never said you didnt have the right to take your daily limit. Its the "im taking these fish because i paid for them" mentality that a lot of people need to get over. If youre not going to eat it throw it back to catch again another day.

I'M ON A MISSION
IM GOING FISHING
#22
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/27 14:24:43 (permalink)
@Jug........

I would say that you are a seasoned angler who believes in fishing and not just 'catching'.

Many great memories have been made with the landing of a carp, catfish or, sucker.

Many fishing trips without memories because a kid wasn't allowed to cast for these terrible 'trash fish'.

As the saying goes "one mans trash is another mans treasure".

Fish on.......
dude
#23
jug
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/27 14:55:41 (permalink)
Thank you.

I'M ON A MISSION
IM GOING FISHING
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SevenMileShowcase
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/27 17:46:54 (permalink)
everything you just said could be said about trout. finding a fly that will work, finding a big fish, limiting your drag, spooking the fish. it comes down to everyones preferences. which is the point im trying to make. you can go and catch all those fish in many waters where trout are not present, and the fact that were stocking and paying for trout will never take that opportunity away?  

East side love is living on the west end
#25
troutguy
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/27 23:59:03 (permalink)
I respect everyone's opinions/thoughts, but wow, there's a lot of misconceptions on here. I didn't read every word on every post yet(yes I know I probably should, so if I repeat something I apologize) but here it goes.....
 
The PFBC stocks many other species besides trout. Hybrid striped bass can't reproduce on there own so of course they're raised in hatcheries. MANY lakes and rivers can't support fishable wild populations of walleye or muskies on there own, so they have to be stocked by the PFBC as well. Catfish and other species are stocked in certain situations. And GUESS WHAT?? Our license dollars pay for those fish, and PFBC facilities such as access areas(at places that don't have trout), boat ramps, etc.. Not just trout...
 
And in regards to trout, it's a LOT more than just throwing powerbait on opening day to freshly stocked fish that don't act like real trout. There are many, MANY, streams throughout the state that have solid populations of wild trout. And a lot of them are NOT your dinky jump across native brookie streams, but bigger streams and even big rivers(such as the Delaware) also have great populations of wild trout as well. And there are also situations where fingerling trout are stocked(Allegheny, Yough, etc....) and the fish grow up and act like real trout. Also, some streams can and do support your average stocked fish year round, or at least through most of the year(say Sept. through June). We just need to get rid of the whole "opening day rope 'em all" attitude and we'd have more stocked trout opportunities available(to add to the many wild trout opportunities).
 
If you think trout fishing in PA is just truck chasing and throwing plastic bobbers to stupid fish, then you need to get out more. Trout are challenging fish........just don't fish for the rubber rainbows that come from the white trucks.......and if you do wait a couple months until they adapt and act like real fish.
 
 
And FYI, all of the trout in the 20in class I caught this year(which as quite a few.......good year for me). were all wild, and they were caught out of stream sections that aren't stocked and not included in "the yearly circus." They weren't easy.......took many trips to learn the streams, the fishes feeding habits, and what tactics work best during certain conditions. It's more than tossing maggots in the bridge hole. A lot more. Logged many miles and explored a lot of water, but it's rewarding in the end. And I don't see many other anglers where I fish for trout(since a lot of the streams I fish aren't stocked).
 
 
And in regards to carp, yeah, they're a blast and very challenging. I love sight fishing for them in the summer. It's not easy and the catch rate isn't high but I love the challenge. Lots of fun. But carp are plentiful and widespread, so the PFBC shouldn't waste what little money they have on them, or other species that have solid populations on their own.
post edited by troutguy - 2014/08/28 00:06:20
#26
jug
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/28 05:12:04 (permalink)
Troutguy, after reading your post I can tell you I have much respect for your way of fishing. THAT is what fishing is all about. Learning the fish, their patterns...hunting them. I've always had respect for the stream angler who pursues the fish rather than you said, chase the stock truck. That is how I got my start in fishing, on the stream as a kid with my dad. And we both agree on the fact that the "keep em all just because I can" mentality needs to be done away with.
I just would like to see more variety in what the PFBC can offer us. I know carp are plentiful so I don't feel the need for them to be stocked but I would like for one day carp to be recognized as they great sport fish they are rather than just a garbage fish. I know there's plenty of flatheads in the rivers, but I myself prefer to steer clear of the city where most the hot spots are. Not a city guy, not a city people guy. They could definately stock more catfish in some of our lakes 200 fingerlings in a local lake once a year really isnt that much when you take into consideration how few of those will survive.
Anyway, I'm glad we can agree on some things.

I'M ON A MISSION
IM GOING FISHING
#27
pikepredator2
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/28 05:35:20 (permalink)
"thats called an erie stamp THATS WHY IT WAS CREATED FOR PUBLIC ACCESS TO THE TRIBS".
 
SevenMile, it sounds like you're the one that needs to do some research; that is not why the Erie Stamp was created.  It was created years ago to subsidize commercial fishermen who could no longer use gill nets banned by the fish commission.  We, as non-commercial fishermen of Lake Erie, had to subsidize their losses and the program was only supposed to last 3 years.  I refused to buy the stamp and boycotted fishing the lake for those 3 years.  But when did anyone ever see a "tax" rescinded?  I assumed the commercial fishermen took their handouts for these 3 years and were no longer getting subsidized so I returned to fishing the lake.  Can you imagine the uproar if this stamp was put into place for the reason you stated, to buy easement rights for steelhead fishermen?  You do realize that everyone who fishes the lake is not necessarily a steelhead fisherman?  And that's exactly why there's a movement to get rid of the stamp.  Hypothetically, let's say I'm not a steelhead guy, yet I have to buy a stamp to fish the lake so the commission can buy easement rights for you to steelhead fish on private property?  I don't think so!  Good thing these monies go for other Erie projects or there'd be a bigger uproar than there already is.  No, this Lake Erie stamp project morphed into something completely different once the commercial fishermen were taken care of.  I don't agree with the easement program either as these easements are granted in perpetuity.  If I go to buy a piece of property and I'm then told by the owner that I have to grant access to anyone with a fishing pole, I'm going to tell that seller to get bent.  But supposedly, all monies from the sale of the Erie Stamp are kept and used strictly for Erie projects.  Don't know if I believe that one.
post edited by pikepredator2 - 2014/08/28 16:17:16
#28
SevenMileShowcase
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/28 16:54:05 (permalink)
Pikepredator please read this, your wrong. anyone else wanna put up false info?
 
http://fishandboat.com/faqlice.htm#6
A separate Lake Erie stamp program was conducted during the mid 1990’s to provide funding for the removal of gill net fishing operations from Lake Erie. That program no longer exists - the Lake Erie stamps issued from it are no longer valid and cannot be used as a substitute for the current Lake Erie permit. The current program is designed to provide funding for new and improved fishing access to Lake Erie and its watersheds.
 

troutguy well stated. imo only musky are harder fish to catch than a wild trout around the 20" length. there is a complete other side to this battle where wild trout enthusiasts are sick of having prime water stocked
 

East side love is living on the west end
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FishinGuy
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Re: Letter to the PA Fish Commission 2014/08/28 17:41:54 (permalink)
@7mile So, what you're saying is that, as a trout fishing enthusiast, you also want the pfbc to quit spending so much money on trout stocking? I like that point of view.
post edited by FishinGuy - 2014/08/28 17:45:17
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