Here we go again....

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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/17 13:01:22 (permalink)
I bought land years ago so I could hunt when and where I wanted to. I do not post my land as I have access to thousands of acres of land owned by others. Asking permission is the key to anothers land and lending a helping hand caring for that land doesn't hurt. Even offering some of your game (including dressing and skinning) from a succesful hunt will get you onto the land owned by others. Good news travels fast, by word of mouth, amongst land owners and so does bad news. I know who trashed the neighbors land and the neighbor knows about the hunter that offered me a couple of the rabbits he bagged on my land. That's the way it works.

However, not everyone is willing to keep their land open, as we all know. I believe these people stand on their back porches at night wringing their hands while looking out across the land and chanting "Mine....... All mine...... Ahh........ Ha... Ha......... Haaaa".

Ummmmmmm Sorry got carried away. Hate when that happens!! Anyway, cute story, before they return me to my room.

Some years back a bunch of Mupp-'eres bought an old farm consisting of 230 acres. First thing up was the red posted signs. They put up so many signs the place looked like it had the measles (is it le or el?). Needless to say, NOBODY could access that land. Welllll the next year, during late spring, a few of those boys were spotted fishing a local trout stream. My buddy, who happens to let his mouth overload his @zz, wanted to know why these guys weren't fishing on their own property. We were abruptly told they could fish anywhere they pleased as long as they walked below the highwater mark. Not wanting any confrontation I blurted out a story of hearing about a huge buck, with a very large velvet hat rack, being seen at a farm up the road from my place. My buddy, looked at me as if I were nuts as this was his farm. As dense as he may be, he soon caught on and added to the hype about the buck.

That fall during archery season, there they were, the Mupp-'eres, hunting my buddies farm.

The first question oughta Bill's mouth was; where's the water? Answering they knew nothing about any water in the area Bill immediately exploded with "no water than no high water mark; get off my land".

The moral to this story? I'll have to get back to you on that.

Cheese look at the time; they'll be bringing my med.s soon, and then it's off to dinner.

Till the next time; be safe...
#31
wirenut45
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/18 08:50:20 (permalink)
B.T.D.T., good story. your co-op story is right on. 1st thing i did after buying this farm was take DOWN the no tres. signs, ,n, tell neighbors they,re welcome to hunt. now i get a backstrap or 2 every year. also neighbor kid has nose for ,shrooms, so i get a few qts. of them too. life is good. wire
#32
workcanwait....
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/21 22:04:26 (permalink)
Ok everyone I see your points but...
I think they should pass some version of this but a lot of details need to be added.
ELK- WALNUT -AND -20 mile the bigger streams with bigger creek beds only walk in access below high water mark from PFBC parking lots.
Up to certain points clearly described in reg book- no tributaries of...
On top of trespassing charges set up a system that when caught outside high water mark you get heavily fined and lose fishing privileges in PA enforced by PFBC.
The rest of the ditches keep access as is no stocking some fish will still use the ditches maybe the clubs will stock them.
I am a landowner but if I bought land on 1 of the 3 creeks mentioned it would just be part of living there steelhead in creeks=people fishing for them.
When I moved here ten yrs or so ago I looked at some properties around the creeks but bought land a short drive away instead.
If the current owners did not like it under these new conditions I think there property value would go up and fisherman would buy the properties giving them access here and there that the public has to walk to.
The only landowners that really have anything to complain about is the ones who have owned the properties long before steelies were stocked and this thing started IMO.
I am not a guide nor do I have any $ made here by the fishing industry just a guy who lives nearby and enjoys fishing for steelhead as often as possible.
Been here 10 yrs or so and it just seems like a mismanaged mess last few years the result being too many posted signs.
 
Again...
ELK- WALNUT -AND -20 mile the bigger streams with bigger creek beds only walk in access below high water mark from PFBC parking lots.
Up to certain points clearly described in reg book- no tributaries of...
On top of trespassing charges set up a system that when caught outside high water mark you get heavily fined and lose fishing privileges in PA enforced by PFBC.
...its been done in other states right.
I am just a redneck do not understand the legal mumbo jumbo about navigable waters isn't this a special scenario.
 
Well dun for now probably get shunned for such an ignorant post but its my 1.9 cents worth on this subject currently I welcome any comments maybe you can change my mind but in a perfect world...WCW
 
 
#33
SwimFishieSwim
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 12:55:11 (permalink)
Good stuff all around especially the last post by workcanwait. There needs to be a middle ground that would offer a feasible solution to anglers and landowners. Both sides have a point, but if the politicians have their way the land owners will get the short end of the stick and the situation will be ugly for years to come. After all the same landowners fish amongst us now and belong to the same clubs we do...
#34
Jester2
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 14:55:39 (permalink)
IMO, easier to amend law to consider these bodies of water 'navigable', and extend same rights to gen public as other navigable streams.  Fisherman cannot enter stream on posted land, but those who can and will choose to walk in via the streambed can access fish.  May not be a solution for a number of reasons, but I too am as concerned about trampling on landowner's rights as I am about access to a fishery funded by license/stamp holders like myself. 
#35
DarDys
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 15:27:54 (permalink)
Here is my issue with the above -- is the person who paid $20 for their fishing license in order to fish for some of the. 300 or so trout that are stocked a mile from my property going to cover the vet bills for one of my State Champion bird dogs when that dog gets a dropped hook in it; pay for the ACL/MCL surgery and rehab when it gets tangled in broken off fishing line; or pay for the loss of income from stud fees and/or sale of line breed puppies because a dog is hobbled by either of the above and can no longer compete in order to up the value if both?

Or, in order to accommodate that person should I not run MY dogs on MY land that I BOUGHT and PAY taxes on?

And unless the PBFC wants to assure me that none of their pesky pellet heads they stocked over the wild trout, which would not fall under any of these types of regs, ever touches the stream bottom, which they will, and thereby are trespassing, then don't tell me I can't fish there either.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#36
workcanwait....
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 15:42:32 (permalink)
They sell health insurance for dogs....
#37
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 18:26:03 (permalink)
@DarDys........

I feel the pain...... My land is not posted and I am not wanting to do so but, may have to post a portion . I have beaver ponds along a small stream that boarders 14 acres of my land. Along with the ponds come geese, ducks, beavers, hunters and trappers.

Last fall I had my Weimaraner and Short Hair join me for a walk as I checked the condition of my ladder stands, one of which was right on the boarder of an adjoining property. This particular boundary is designated by a cattle fence which so happens to run between two trees less then 3ft apart. The stand is on my side of the fence and I just began to check the bottom brace when I heard my Weimy yelp. Somebody had set a jaw trap right at the base of the tree (just 36") on the other side of the fence. The Weimy was now growling, biting at the trap and, trying to pull his foot out. Thankfully I knew how to spring the trap and get my dog free. Least not forget I have a Shorthair bouncing around cause she thinks this is all a game. I knew full well there would be more traps in the area and I was right. After getting the dogs into their kennels I found more traps floating on styrofoam docks in the ponds on my side of the fence. Both of my dogs would be in that water every day if they could.

Here's the real deal.... I can't touch those traps and the trap my dog got caught in; I have to notify the owner of the trap that my dog set his trap off and I had to release my animal. Legally, in PA., the owner of a trap must be present when a trap is opened by someone other than the owner.

So, to post or not to post, this is the question.

@Workcanwait.............

Posted/No Trespassing signs are much cheaper!!
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2014/08/22 18:30:10
#38
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 18:49:52 (permalink)
How about this scenario; in PA. I am protected (yeah right) from legal action should a person be injured while engaged in hunting, trapping, and/or fishing on land owned by me.

Any idea of what it cost to have a dog bite suit thrown out of court because the injured was biten while hunting? Protected or not, there remains the threat of legal fees.

To post; or not to post, will it make difference?
#39
workcanwait....
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 21:47:51 (permalink)
Ok everyone just for he record ...
I like everything nature has to offer good and bad.
I have a lot of pets species should not matter.
Pets are our responsibilities here or there...
Yes a dog may get harmed when walking it thru this world whether steelhead fishermen/wumen are present or NOT!
The situation on PA Erie Lake tribs is unique to say the least.
I do not even know where derday' owns land nor do I care walk your dogs at their own risk its a wild and crazy world if you are so worried about their health buy insurance...
 
ELK- WALNUT -AND -20 MILE ...within the high water mark.
up to where ever debate that without me...
Money talks in this world we all know it like it or not and my lil' idea would bring more to the fishery ignoring the problems will just mean it slowly gets worse...
If the answer is do not stock anymore so be it I know how to fish NY and OH too but PA has a chance to make their mark in steelhead alley if they play their cards right...
 
#40
workcanwait....
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 21:59:58 (permalink)
ALSO ...MY LAND HERE IS POSTED FROM OTHERS HUNTING AND USING IT!!!
But if I lived near either of these three streams I would almost assume some one is going to fish them posted or not.
 
I AM NOT ASKING LANOWNERS TO ALLOW PEOPLE WALKING THRU THEIR YARDS TO ACCESSS CREEKS JUST WALKIN FROM DESIGNATED PARKING LOTS BELOW HIGH WATER MARK OR ELSE...
 
WE ARE TYPING ABOUT STREAMS THAT ARE HEAVILY STOCKED WITH FISH RAISED ON PA ANGLERS $$$ ITS SIMPLE LET THEM FISH FOR THEM OR...END GAME.
 
THE ALLOW FISHING OR ITS NURSURY WATERS ARGUMENT HAS SOME MERIT TO ME IF NOTHING ELSE CAN BE WORKED OUT BUT STILL NOT THE RIGHT ANSWER...
 
THE Y-LING LAGERS MADE ME GO TO CAPS SORRY I AM HUMAN!
ITS THAT TIME OF YEAR AND NITE.
WCW
#41
workcanwait....
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 22:03:59 (permalink)
BEEN THERE DUN THAT...DID A STEELHEAD FISHERPERSON SET TRAPS FOR YOUR DOGS HOW IS THIS RELAVANT.
This whole thing is not about state wide waterways just a few ditches...IMO
#42
workcanwait....
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/22 22:06:33 (permalink)
Nite nite YALL'...are they mup tu Rt 5 yet!
#43
Ninja of the Steel
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/23 05:01:54 (permalink)
“If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!”  ~Samual Adams~
 
Strip them of their land! Strip them of their land!
 
 
 
 
post edited by Ninja of the Steel - 2014/08/23 05:04:21

"The images of himself and his line kept disappearing into the rising vapors of the river, which continually circles to the tops of the cliffs where, after becoming a wreath in the wind, they became rays of the sun."
#44
DarDys
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/23 07:56:44 (permalink)
So, I need to buy pet insurance in order to protect my financial interests because my property rights are trumped by the privilege some one gets when they purchase a $20 fishing license?

That makes the decision really, really easy. If that is the mindset of even a few, then the place gets posted as solid as Sears used to be, including a wire across the stream since I own both sides. And around here, fortunately, law enforcement still takes trespassing, posted or not, and property rights very seriously. As do the neighbors. Because of the attitude expressed here 3 miles of trout stream will now be off limits.

As for other stuff washing in, that is true, but I doubt hooks and line would be among them, especially those directly deposited, even by accident.

For the record, this land is 200 miles from Erie, but like most laws focused on one area have quite unintended consequences.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#45
indsguiz
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/23 09:58:45 (permalink)
Gentlemen,
    I have voiced this opinion here many times.  I agree with DarDys on the right to post property and to restrict access.  My family used to own a small stretch of prime creek in Central PA that was always open.  It was stocked, and we allowed access.  But there was one group (all "family members") who started abusing the privilege.  They parked in lawns, ( it may look like a field but if it's regularly cut to 3" it's a yard) left beer cans and food wrappers and once even had a party on our land.  And one time when asked to leave one of the inbreds tore up the lawn with his 4 W/D truck.  So the land became posted.
      A good solution to all the problem is this:  If you want to post your land, then fine.  Only you or your family members can fish it.  If you turn it into a commercial enterprise then it should be taxed as commercial property, and as commercial property, insurance should be required. 
      I'm all for access, and since I'm 63, I have been fishing the tribs since before many people on here were born.  At one time most of the tribs were open.  But greed, and slob fishermen, ruined the experience.  And, at one time, if you asked politely, much of the posted land could be accessed.  But that has all been changed by said "slob fishermen" demanding access to areas that people don't want them in.  It's one thing to ask.  It's another thing to demand or usurp the privilege.
      Oddly enough, there was a law in the commonwealth, that provided access to all creeks.  But that law was enacted before PA became a state.  It seems that big landowners were closing off the creeks and not allowing settlers (poor people) access to the creeks for drinking water or to water their livestock, or to subsistence fish, or to transport goods by water (the basis of our  "navigable waterways").  And so the commonwealth legislature passed a law that basically read that all people will have access to water for the purpose of drinking and the taking of fisshes.  I don't know if this law was ever carried over to when we became a state but most of the statutes and commonwealth laws were.  Some lawyer could look it up. And settle the case.  And there again the bigger issue is what level of navigation?  Most of the creeks in PA could be accessed by dragging a canoe or floating a small barge on them, even Spruce Creek, and Spring Creek.  That's how the trappers traversed the "wilderness"  and farmers got goods to market.  If a person looks closely to the banks of these creeks "tow trails" where a horse or OX pulling a small boat walked, can still be seen.
        Now that I have fanned the flames of negative opinion, I will retire and observe.
 
post edited by indsguiz - 2014/08/23 10:04:27

Illegitimis Non carborundum
#46
workcanwait....
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/23 22:10:10 (permalink)
Read thru all this again...
I am not for this any stocked water being open to public I understand how wide spread that would be in PA-jus a silly idea.
But ELK Walnut  and 20 mile have a special place in PA fishing.
Its BS what the guides have done locking up certain areas for themselves and their $ toting clients.
Just the BIG 3 allow fishing within high water mark.
Personally I would walk from Legion to Folleys in a day and love it most land owners wouldn't know I was there and if I ran into them I would treat them with full respect.Be nice to have PFBC lot on bridge midway but maybe leave parking as is on Elk -Walnut and 20 mile.
How about 20 mile Rt 5 to 90 or 90 to NY line it all can be fished without disturbing landowners.
Walnut Rt 5 to Milfair Rd...
 
Maybe take the stamp money and spilt it up between landowners as a yearly payment(again property values go up).
 
I am a humble guy not matter how I come across here on FISHERIE but it sounds doable kinda to me.
If this was done and stocking numbers were kept up (MORE BROWNIES)
PA would draw a lot more steelheaders and $ would be made like never before by all involved.
 
Do I just want more water open so I can go be a greedy as a  local and catch my share?...NO I will catch steelies no matter what its in my blood just like sitting in my favorite deer stand during the rut.
But as is PA is mismanaging the steelie situation.
 
DarDys sounds like your posting your  THREE MILES  of creek either way.
Your dogs if State Champs should be already insured IMO like anything else of value nothing personal just 2014 reality.
Not trying to butt heads with you jus saying- relax have another frozen drink-CHEERS FELLOW FISHERMAN. 
 
Anytime now the regulars will start reading here again looking for news this topic will be tossed about along with my opinions oh well maybe yall' can teach me sumin'...
 
Half way dun with firewoodin' be fishing soun'..WCW
 
 
 
 
 
#47
wirenut45
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/24 08:07:58 (permalink)
ya know, this thread has gone 2 pages ,n, been darn civil , just a bunch of guys throwing their 2 cents out there. no name calling, no insults. just talk. really enjoyed the talk fellas. thank you. wire
#48
DarDys
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/24 08:16:06 (permalink)
That does happen on occasion -- LOL.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#49
bubbaman
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/24 11:48:28 (permalink)
I don't fish for steelhead anymore since in the beginning of the circus, it was nice at the very beginning, but it really has went down hill for a lot of reasons. but that being said I don't feel any one should make a profit for fishing over stocked fish they didn't buy and keeping out the people that paid for the stocking. wouldn't this be considered as income ? maybe the state should look into tax returns to see if this income has been reported ,If money passes hands is that not a business ? also maybe the IRS should look into it. taking a mans land rights is not the answer. the PGC has made an artificial fishery with no regards to how far or how big it would get, they made a new fishery in the middle of a highly populated area and you don,t think landowners are not going to resent that when the thousands of idiots local and otherwise descend  upon their property and act like it's theirs.
#50
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/24 12:31:58 (permalink)
Knock....... Knock!!

"Who's there?"

"PA. Conservation Group".

"Wassup dudes"?

"Wanna buy (some of) your land for a parking lot and access to the creek".

"Umm..... No thanks; not for sale".

Knock.......... Knock......

"Who's there"?

"PA. Agency(s)".

" Wassup dude"?

"Want you to sell (some of) your property for a parking lot and access to the creek".

"Not for sale".

Knock....... Knock........

"Who is there"?

"Law Of Eminent Domain offering you the appraised market value for (some of) your land. We will be building a parking lot and access to the creek".

"NO WAY DUDE"!!!!

Knock......... Knock.......

"Who is there"???

"PA. Sheriff; IN THE INTEREST OF THE PUBLIC, You have xxx days to vacate (some of ) your land for a parking lot and access to the creek.

KNOCK........ KNOCK......

PA. is not the only state that has exercised the Law of Eminent Domain. Isn't it wonderful how the goverment looks out for you and me......... 'we're the public'.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2014/08/27 12:41:38
#51
cbeagler
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/24 16:26:16 (permalink)
Dardys  +1
Let's exchange champion bird dog, for beagle. OK, now I feel better. So then, exchange it for anything else that is yours. Lawn, tractors, farm equipment, prize winning daisies, anything. The increase of traffic through your property increases risk for you.  Insurance or not, the burden of added protection should NOT be a necessary levy against the land owner for others using his property.  And darn it, if something you do hurts my dog all the insurance in the world is not going to unhurt it.
#52
DarDys
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/25 06:20:56 (permalink)
Agreed. I actually own a very small part of that distance of stream, but upon hearing about the proposal, my neighbors who, as you state, have other interests -- cattle, both beef and milk; horses; sheep; sweet corn that they sell; farm equipment; etc. -- are now not so welcoming to others.

They are so keen on having to protect their stuff, whatever it might be, and themselves, should one of those bulls not be as friendly as Ferdinand to folks he doesn't know in his pasture, which is his home.

Along with the stream goes about 1,800 acres of former open hunting ground because they feel if it's going to be posted for fishing, hunting, berry picking, etc. is the next logical step.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#53
wirenut45
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/25 07:35:56 (permalink)
a little O.T., but, i wonder how hard it would be for comm. to change stream class. to navigable for small ones such as walnut.
#54
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/25 11:26:47 (permalink)
@wirenut..............

Being a truck driver certifies my opinion as being overbearing and at least 10% accurate. When in doubt, go to channel 19 (aka; Sesame St.) on a CB radio and ask your question.

Any how my cousins' third wifes' first mother inlaw was a cutodian in the office of a fish commisioner and she said; if a body of water becomes capable of of floating a boat, even if only one time of the year, it's deemed navigable water(s).

Feel free to ask a truck driver, when in need of a answer, there is ' no charge'.

This information brought to by a member of 'LEGENDS IN THEIR OWN MIND'.
#55
Porktown
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/25 12:05:11 (permalink)
#56
D-nymph
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/25 14:04:53 (permalink)
DarDys


And unless the PBFC wants to assure me that none of their pesky pellet heads they stocked over the wild trout, which would not fall under any of these types of regs, ever touches the stream bottom, which they will, and thereby are trespassing, then don't tell me I can't fish there either.



 
I thought you said that you read & understood the article?  It's now obvious you didn't & you are one of the people I mentioned in my first post.  I suggest reading it.
#57
fishrmn
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/25 16:10:45 (permalink)
D-nymph
DarDys


And unless the PBFC wants to assure me that none of their pesky pellet heads they stocked over the wild trout, which would not fall under any of these types of regs, ever touches the stream bottom, which they will, and thereby are trespassing, then don't tell me I can't fish there either.



 
I thought you said that you read & understood the article?  It's now obvious you didn't & you are one of the people I mentioned in my first post.  I suggest reading it.




#58
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/25 16:40:55 (permalink)
Said this before...A judge ruled.."as long as there is enough water to float a leaf, it is navigable". I read that a long time ago on a raparian rights case and should have saved it...WF...I should have saved a lot of things.
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Re: Here we go again.... 2014/08/25 22:44:51 (permalink)
And if that judge is 'not knowing'.... then that judge depends on the advice of the experts. Bet ya can't guess who the experts are!!
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