Big Game scoring session June

Big Game scoring session June

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Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 8:18:01 AM

dpms

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It has been six years since the last scoring session. We will see, soon enough, the results.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?Q=173904&A=11

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 9:00:41 AM

SilverKype

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Will we also see, soon enough, the excuses.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 11:14:32 AM

MuskyMastr

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If you are going to try and base management decisions on scoring, then that is the reason we are in the sad state of affairs that we are in.

Also, see if they come up with any data whatsoever that compares "age class scores" with what they had 6 years ago. My money says no friggin way will that happen because they would look bad.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 11:37:55 AM

SilverKype

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...and the excuses have begun.

Higher scoring, bigger bucks is a benefit of AR, not the purpose of it at all.

I expected you to know that MM.

Still waiting to hear the inferior gene argument!!!

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 12:02:32 PM

MuskyMastr

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That's why I like this board, we have all gotten to know each other. You have to understand that it is my job as the "black sheep biologist" to make these arguments until someone can show me why they are invalid.

And I can count on you to miss my point.... AR is flawed, not because of how the deer score, but because it is not the most beneficial management plan for overall health of the herd. Score is just data that supports that conclusion.

BTW the whole genetic argument is pretty much open and shut natural selection.

Not excuses, questions, to which no solid data based response has ever been given.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 12:21:33 PM

dpms

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr

If you are going to try and base management decisions on scoring, then that is the reason we are in the sad state of affairs that we are in.

The PGC does not, nor do I. What it may tell you is that our bucks are, on average, older than what they were 6 years ago. That was one of the goals of AR.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 12:23:59 PM

SilverKype

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr

but because it is not the most beneficial management plan for overall health of the herd.

You got a plan? Let's hear the better route to take then??

As for inferior genetics produced by AR.

Pre - AR.

Past two years.

Please explain this phenomeon to me. Maybe I just don't "get it."

oh yes, 5 of the top 10 pa archery bucks have come since 2003.

That's compared to the past 90 years of bucks.

Did you miss my point?

< Message edited by SilverKype -- 4/9/2008 1:19:42 PM >

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 12:30:55 PM

SilverKype

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opps.. The second picture, top buck is a postAR, 2003 deer.

I certainly don't know how to introduce older deer into our herd and maintain a more balanced structure without an antler restriction.

Maybe you do. If so, I hope to hear it.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 1:09:37 PM

dpms

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

I certainly don't know how to introduce older deer into our herd and maintain a more balanced structure without an antler restriction.

Well, you could shorten the antlered rifle season to three days like many states with older bucks. Or you could make antlered tags available by drawing to limit harvest.

I think most of us know that those alternatives would go over worse than the current point restriction has witht the naysayers.

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Post #: 9

RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 2:09:45 PM

MuskyMastr

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AR is not a bad idea, I said it is flawed. Here in the 4 per side areas the average 1.5 yo is an 8 pt. So to fix it here, go to 5 per side and include spikes, threes and fours. Yes they will be nice bucks when they are older, BUT not as nice as a deer of the same age that is 7 or 8 at that age.

in the 3 per side area include spikes.

Then you are getting closer to the "science based management" that they are preaching.

My biggest problem is that they claim to be using science based management and that is not what it is. It is politics with some science sprinkled in.
So if you are not going to do that then don't hide behind it. Call it what it is and people will start to believe what you say, at that point you can build a working relationship with the hunters instead of spending all your time fighting them. When I say you I mean pgc, not trying to single anyone out.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 3:55:56 PM

Dream Catcher

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Check that out . They waited 6 years instead of three years due to budget decrease ! It gets even better ..... Sounds to me they tried , didn't get what they hoped for , and now made this lame excuse to do it six years later . So now they have three extra years to fudge the numbers . I know it costs alot to get out the old steel tape & add up numbers . I can't wait to see this .

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 4:34:23 PM

dpms

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dream Catcher

Check that out . They waited 6 years instead of three years due to budget decrease ! It gets even better ..... Sounds to me they tried , didn't get what they hoped for , and now made this lame excuse to do it six years later . So now they have three extra years to fudge the numbers . I know it costs alot to get out the old steel tape & add up numbers . I can't wait to see this .

< Message edited by dpms -- 4/9/2008 4:37:13 PM >

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/9/2008 6:31:46 PM

SilverKype

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr

AR is not a bad idea, I said it is flawed. Here in the 4 per side areas the average 1.5 yo is an 8 pt. So to fix it here, go to 5 per side and include spikes, threes and fours. Yes they will be nice bucks when they are older, BUT not as nice as a deer of the same age that is 7 or 8 at that age.

in the 3 per side area include spikes.

Then you are getting closer to the "science based management" that they are preaching.

My biggest problem is that they claim to be using science based management and that is not what it is. It is politics with some science sprinkled in.
So if you are not going to do that then don't hide behind it. Call it what it is and people will start to believe what you say, at that point you can build a working relationship with the hunters instead of spending all your time fighting them. When I say you I mean pgc, not trying to single anyone out.

Come on MM. Be realistic. Trophy managed outfitters don't even shoot 3 and 4 pts. Most don't shoot spikes. That's not getting close to "science based management. Why would you want PA to be a trophy managed state? AR isn't, nor ever was put there to do that. 5 pt. to a side is silly.

oh, the above bucks are likely more a product of HR. Those "no deer" areas don't get hunted much anymore. Who's to say AR saved those bucks. Guess it's possible it saved them their first year. Them road hunters don't do well on those older deer.

< Message edited by SilverKype -- 4/9/2008 6:43:30 PM >

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/10/2008 12:11:23 AM

MuskyMastr

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If you have never read or seen a forkhorn or a rag 6 or 8 shot as a management deer, then we are having a useless conversation because you don't understand managing a healthy herd, or for antler size.

Sometime this week I will take some pic of my biggest bucks some approaching the 150's ALL shot between 1990 and 1999. In lawrence county where I archery hunt I used to see 1 or 2 spikes a season. This year I saw 17. Last year I saw 14. I have the logs to prove it.

Are people shooting nicer bucks, yes. But the whole point is that they are not nicer bucks they are just older bucks and over time antler size will begin to decrease from what we are seeing now. It is called robbing peter to pay paul and it will catch up with us.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/10/2008 12:58:35 AM

SilverKype

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I'm refering to younger deer. That's Pa's problem, if you're talking bigger racks. There is no reason to shoot a 1.5 year old buck because he's only an 8 pt, or 6 pt. That's ridiculous. Yes, trophy managed areas shoot those bucks but not a 1.5. How do you expect every hunter to id young versus old deer? You expect hunters to shoot spikes, 3 and 4's, pass on 3 and 4 to a side, then shoot 5 to a side? In PA? That's funny!!

Didn't we have a guy shoot a spike elk for a deer?

Why do these trophy managed areas shoot all the "scrubs" then two years later, they end up with more "scrubs" they have to shoot?? ahh.... doe genetics. This is why your agrument about AR being determential, holds no water. You blaming AR on all the spikes you now see holds nothing either. There's something more too it. It's the health of the mother and the time the doe was bred and when the button buck was born. This isn't a controlled situation where cow insemination with sperm from one bull covers the breeding. I've seen just the opposite of what you've seen. How could that be? AR works here but not there? I don't think so.. More to the game than just AR. It's an easy scapegoat however. You've still yet to state your argument. Using some state's data that has majority harvest before breeding isn't going to cut it.

Please explain to me, as I've already asked, how do you think PA needs to manage for healthy deer. Right now, it's the healthiest it's ever been, where I'm at. And no, that doesn't have to do with antler size. I have found two carcasses this winter, both less than a year old. Far more mothers with twins over the recent years. Larger bodies by far. larger young racks too. If they get shot, oh well, over 75% of our breeding occurs before the big kill. Sorry, I can't say my area has unhealthy deer anymore. Healthy deer is what it is all about. Not antler size, not 50 dpsm. I can take some pics of the wall at "Camp Spike" too.

btw.. you refering to people shooting older bucks, not nicer. Last I checked, bucks are born with the same racks.. two bumps.

The only catching up PA is doing is up to the midwest states in the records books. It amazes me that we can even get half.. considering the amount of outfitting that goes on in those states. Still waiting on peter and paul.

< Message edited by SilverKype -- 4/10/2008 1:08:47 AM >

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/25/2008 12:50:55 AM

DanesDad

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In some circles, it is believed that antler point restrictions lead to "high grading", that is, the killing off of the genetically superior deer (those that meet the point restrictions) allowing more sub legal , genetically inferior deer to do most of the breeding, hence passing on their genes more frequently than the bigger racked bucks.
Ultimately, as the theory goes, the overall average rack size goes down.

My personal belief is that, of all factors affecting antler score, genetics is, by far, the LEAST important. What causes the greatest positive change in antler size? I think letting bucks live longer. And AR is doing that. HR probably also helps, as there are fewer deer to compete for forage now.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/27/2008 10:30:20 PM

treesparrow

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Perhaps we should all refrain from shooting any bucks unless they are 5 1/2 years old and older. Then ocaisionally get a special permit to cull genetically inferior bucks from the herd,only on a one on one basis of course. The person doing the culling would be required to show photos to a panel and get a permit to cull that particular buck.
I am just showing how perfect QDM will never be obtainable in Pa with the dynamics of the hunting tradition here. I havent seen a sugestion on this or any other forum that I felt would improve our present attempt at better management.
Something interesting I recently read in the Smithsonian this month that made me think about a bucks ability to develope into a prime dominant animal. In an artical about Hyenas biologists beleave that the dominant well fed females are more likely to give birth to more dominant offspring. "Traits related to social status which can be inherited through a mothers hormones rather than genetics". The social status of the female dictates the order in which she and her young feed. I guess food wasn't the only factor in this spike in hormones in the fetus and could be due to the higher hormone levels of the mother also. But it made me think of all those half starved deer that were running around in the big woods in Pa. Perhaps improving the habitat will lead to stronger offspring capable of becoming super bucks. A doe having trouble making the winter surely can't deliver offspring capable of developing to its full potential, whether it is a buck or a doe offspring.

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RE: Big Game scoring session June - 4/29/2008 2:04:51 PM

SilverKype

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Maybe it'll rain or sumthin' and folks will stay in for the scoring sessions. Fog may keep the numbers down.

If it's nice out, watch out!! The past few years are already leading the PA history books now, without scoring sessions. Let me guess, must be the new technology of getting bucks scored. yikes!! Oh yeah, did I mention Gary Alt rules?!?!?!?! LOL

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