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Beaches. - 10/29/2009 11:39:46 AM

indsguiz

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Gentlemen,
As much as I search I can't find the answer to a simple question. To wit: Are all the beaches along the Lake Erie shoreline public, or can they be restricted. Now I know there are some places where there aren't any beaches (cliffs) but where there is a beach can a person legally access the beach to fish? I know the lake is supposed to be public domain but how about wading in the water?

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 11:45:30 AM

Ironhed

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Jack,

If the terrain would allow you, you could walk from Buffalo to Toledo along the beach, AS LONG AS you stay within the high water mark.
It is a navigable waterway(Lake Erie) so by doing so, you would not be trespassing.

Ironhed

< Message edited by Ironhed -- 10/29/2009 11:47:24 AM >

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 12:01:07 PM

jolie

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Now I don't mean to be disagreeable but I heard a few years back after the 911 scare... about the "fortifications" about Boston's airport.

Details are vague, but I HAD thought that they restricted a large section of the bay. They was an outcry from recreational crabber and fishermen that had fished those lagoons since there were European settlers in the Boston area. The big comprimise was to assign namebadges and a check in/registration procedure for the recreational anglers...

This seems clearly to be an exception to the "navigational" waterway rule.

anyway I'm sure this only applies to just a few government facilities. But you for sure Are on FIRM ground (so to speak) to ask and get approval from the landowner before wading or being on the shore (whether you're below the high water mark or not).

PS. if I can find an article about it, I'll include it.

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 12:30:01 PM

jolie

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It appears that this law is not an easy thing to figure out exactly and may vary state by state. In Texas, for example there were having Alot of trouble with RVing on dried riverbanks and created a ton of restrictions. Perhaps the best website, I saw on it was from Oregon. it was detailed but generally it asserts that people should NOT ASSUME they have the right to wade.

http://www.ormap.org/mapmanual/pdfs/22-App_F.pdf

it seems clear to me that Federal law gives one the general right to boat on a navigational waterway, irregardless of the ownership of streambeds or the shoreline. I still think there is federal teeth that does prevent people from accessing some structures. You're not going to approach a Dam by boat, for example (in the post 911) day. And logan is another good exception. its built into the bay, so you could gain access by boat-- if the security guards with machine guns, or the dogs don't catch you first.

I do not know but would be REALLY suprised if there were no refinery's, powerplants, etc; that wanted you off the beach. Otherwise than that, I'd feel free walking along the shore...

< Message edited by jolie -- 10/29/2009 12:33:14 PM >

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 12:30:14 PM

pghmarty

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I think the beach is public but the park has restrictions essentially limiting access

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 12:37:18 PM

jolie

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ARe we talking presque isle, or more generally?

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 12:46:29 PM

Raab

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gull point...

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 12:48:51 PM

pghmarty

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quote:

presque isle,

quote:

ORIGINAL: jolie

ARe we talking presque isle, or more generally?

presque isle,

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 1:17:11 PM

crappiefisher

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I just don't get the navigable waterway laws in PA. The high water mark is a tough one when alot of places (beaches,boat docks ...) Lake Erie & the 3 Rivers have fences from the h.w.m. way out in the water to keep people out??????

???? Some docks go out almost to islands on the river blocking boat traffic, maybe they own the island also?

Crappy

< Message edited by crappiefisher -- 10/29/2009 1:19:39 PM >

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 1:44:16 PM

Ironhed

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jolie

Now I don't mean to be disagreeable but I heard a few years back after the 911 scare... about the "fortifications" about Boston's airport.

Details are vague, but I HAD thought that they restricted a large section of the bay. They was an outcry from recreational crabber and fishermen that had fished those lagoons since there were European settlers in the Boston area. The big comprimise was to assign namebadges and a check in/registration procedure for the recreational anglers...

This seems clearly to be an exception to the "navigational" waterway rule.

anyway I'm sure this only applies to just a few government facilities. But you for sure Are on FIRM ground (so to speak) to ask and get approval from the landowner before wading or being on the shore (whether you're below the high water mark or not).

PS. if I can find an article about it, I'll include it.

The only thing that I know of that would help in these scenarios would be the T.W.I.C. .

Ironhed

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 4:10:31 PM

D-MAC

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if the beach is private land then i would think you would need permission to be on it. I don't think there is any such thing as a high water mark right of way...

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 4:38:18 PM

crappiefisher

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Kelso beach had a fence up with no tres. sign on the beach to keep out Sarra's campers. Asked the Lady (owner) why?? She said too many hippies over there. This was back in the 60's & 70's

The Alleg. River has no tres. signs / fences / steel cables along the shore from priv. owners, clubs, parks & so on. I have had a # ov conversations with land owners that they do not have the right not to let me pass along the waters edge. I told 'em to go call the local Fuzz if they don't believe me

Crappy

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 10:43:20 PM

Ironhed

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"I don't think there is any such thing as a high water mark right of way..."

Huh?

Ironhed

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RE: Beaches. - 10/29/2009 10:59:21 PM

swinger

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Jolie, are you the dude from "Whale Wars"

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RE: Beaches. - 10/30/2009 8:18:07 AM

glen

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I was told by a game warden that on Chautauqua Lake there was a 6' public right of way along the entire shore. You could not tresspass to get to the shoreline but once legally there you could walk thru anyone's "lakefront property" and also fish if you wanted to

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RE: Beaches. - 10/30/2009 10:34:21 AM

jolie

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Swinger... umm .. no?!

I'm with Ironhed on that "Huh"... there definitely is a public right to be on a navigational waterway. For most properties (including I would imagine all of presque isle), a normal propertyowner has little claim on the shore (or streambed) of a navigational waterway. Since Presque isle is a Park and not neccesarily a "property" park rules (such as being closed at night) might apply when wading in the surf. (I don't honestly know and am not sure where to look).

where to draw this line I'm sure varies by state. High water seems to be a common mark. Most police depts don't want to have a big argument where is "SAFE"; my experience is that if Youre visibly fishing at the waters edge littering, drunk or have a huge fire, and aren't on private structures or lawns,etc. there's no problem and a jerk of a property owner can't really say much. the most you might have to explain is how you got there without trespassing.

chautaqua is an interesting case. There's very little public access, quite an incredible onslaught of calico in the spring and Docks Everywhere. Glen, did you get the impression that you had the right to be on someones dock (which is within 6' of the shore)??? I'm doubting that very much.
anyway I ain't go anywhere in defiance of the signs, whether its 6' from the lake or no. Cause of the large crowd of determined crappieslayers , locals that want you off usually make it pointedly clear.

Crappie; I find it interesting that you have fences beyond the HWM... normal river fluctuation would (it seems to me) undermine the fences. Moreover I thought they were laws forbidding people to put in obstructions in the water. If you know of a structure, you should claim you had a close call with your boat (or know someone that did) and complain. You should just plain stay off of docks or other structures.

What might seem kind of complicated legally seems really clear to me from a common sense point of view. Don't push your luck with large important facilies (dams, locks, refineries, warehouses). boats are best, normal property owners can't stop people from wading, and only pace along the shore in places that look vacant. don't create a ruckus, litter or create a mess at (or near) the waters edge.

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RE: Beaches. - 10/30/2009 11:26:51 AM

D-MAC

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I'm still going to have to disagree if your in the water and then walk onto somebodies land i would think your trespassing, now if you stay in the water then you would be okay...can't picture there's a 6 foot buffer zone...

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RE: Beaches. - 10/30/2009 12:47:48 PM

Ironhed

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quote:

ORIGINAL: D-MAC

I'm still going to have to disagree if your in the water and then walk onto somebodies land i would think your trespassing, now if you stay in the water then you would be okay...can't picture there's a 6 foot buffer zone...

Baby Jesus help us all...

Ironhed

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RE: Beaches. - 10/30/2009 1:16:44 PM

indsguiz

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Interesting, Verrry interesting! 18 posts, 12 opinions, 3 references to other places and still not one person being able to give a definative answer. Oh BTW the Fish coom can't give a definative answer either. "It depends on the area" was the best answer I got? ? ?

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RE: Beaches. - 10/30/2009 2:29:32 PM

glen

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Jack, this might help

http://www.art-department.com/olg/images/LSC_GreatLakesBoundaries.pdf

http://planetsave.com/blog/2009/10/11/is-great-lakes-shoreline-public-or-private/

http://www.theoec.org/PDFs/Water/Photos-ObstructingAccess_LakeErieShore.pdf

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RE: Beaches. - 10/31/2009 11:39:28 AM

D-MAC

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Thanks Glen

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RE: Beaches. - 10/31/2009 12:46:43 PM

indsguiz

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Glen, that's it! So long as you stay in the water you should be legal. But if you walk on shore for any reason (deep water, a large rock) you can be fined for tresspassing. Thanks!

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RE: Beaches. - 10/31/2009 2:34:35 PM

glen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: indsguiz

Glen, that's it! So long as you stay in the water you should be legal. But if you walk on shore for any reason (deep water, a large rock) you can be fined for tresspassing. Thanks!

Yes, Like the law in Ohio that is being contested, the property owner owns to the waters edge. High water mark doesn't exist.

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RE: Beaches. - 10/31/2009 7:09:06 PM

swinger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glen

quote:

ORIGINAL: indsguiz

Glen, that's it! So long as you stay in the water you should be legal. But if you walk on shore for any reason (deep water, a large rock) you can be fined for trespassing. Thanks!

Yes, Like the law in Ohio that is being contested, the property owner owns to the waters edge. High water mark doesn't exist.

Land owner owns to half of the river/creek. Unless owns both sides and now owns all the land under the water. You are permitted to float through and thats it. You can fish while floating. You anchor or step foot on land you r trespassing. My opinion the law here in OH will never change.

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RE: Beaches. - 11/1/2009 2:15:44 AM

glen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: swinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: glen

quote:

ORIGINAL: indsguiz

Glen, that's it! So long as you stay in the water you should be legal. But if you walk on shore for any reason (deep water, a large rock) you can be fined for trespassing. Thanks!

Yes, Like the law in Ohio that is being contested, the property owner owns to the waters edge. High water mark doesn't exist.

Land owner owns to half of the river/creek. Unless owns both sides and now owns all the land under the water. You are permitted to float through and thats it. You can fish while floating. You anchor or step foot on land you r trespassing. My opinion the law here in OH will never change.

We were talking about the shoreline of Lake Erie, Check the urls I posted, Glen

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RE: Beaches. - 11/1/2009 8:34:41 AM

swinger

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Sorry Glen. I just jumped in assuming. Shore I can not comment on. But what I posted is for the rivers and creeks.

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